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Old 01-21-2012, 12:20 AM   #1
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


I am finishing my basement. Before I could, I had to figure out why I had water in the basement. The house was old so I knew that my waterproofing material was deteriorating. So I shoveled down five feet around the whole 40by24 foot house. I rotary hammered all the existing deteriorating waterproofer off. I found trails of holes that were from when they poured half the concrete and while waiting for the next mud truck they didn't vibrate the two mixtures together. I rotary hammered the holes and cracks of all loose debris and patched. Made everything look pretty with a pressure washer. I applied Grace Bituthene and delta-ms protection board. Was very pleased with how all that went. Was suprised to see how well the concrete nailer worked. Some would just blow a huge hole in the concrete but most worked well. Before all this I put plastic from the sill plate to the top of my huge mound of dirt to keep rain out. Pretty much like a plastic skirt around my house. So that is my info to lead you to my question. It rained heavy for a couple days and I found out I have a water table issue. My wife woke me up one morning and said, "Baby you got water in your hole". That is a ongoing joke in the family now. My plan is to put a six inch perforated drain pipe around the exterior foundation lower than the floor. So that will take care of the pressure from the exterior. I am going to put in 4 inch pipe on both sides and middle of interior foundation below slab. That should fix the pressure exerted on the floor. I will connect all 5 pipes to a sump pump. When I did get water in my hole i removed the interior sump pump and put it outside in the trench. It did not have enough output to pump the water fast enough from what was coming in. I am also going to slope my whole interior slab to my sump pump so if water does come in eventually(clogged drain or something) it has a place to go. I will build my subfloor about 3 inches above the concrete floor. Do you think that will work? I had no idea how fast a rising water table is. I know my 5 drainage pipes leading to the sump pump will have tremendous water coming through them when the water table rises. If I get a badass sump pump do you think it will be able to handle that flow of water? Am I missing anything here? Thanks.

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Old 01-21-2012, 09:25 AM   #2
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


what about adding another pit and pump? I know lots of newer homes that are build in lower areas have 2 pits and 2 pumps because of this very same reason.

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daltinator (01-23-2012)
Old 01-21-2012, 12:42 PM   #3
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


That is a good idea. I thought about it before but didn't want to buy 3 sump pumps. 1 on each side and I wanted a extra on standby in case anything happened. But I already spent good amount of money. Might as well do it the best way imaginable. Is it possible to control rising water level for a few days till it goes back down? Once I fill with rock and dirt will my hole have more resistance to water rising then it would if it was just open as it is? Just wondering if I would have less water flow to my sump pump once filled. Cause I feel with a open hole I am getting so much water because it is the path of least resistance.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:36 PM   #4
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


What you really are dealing with is an "exagerated" water table. The fact that the foundation is excavated, even though it is covered, still makes it a weak point that it won't be when backfilled tight.

I wouldn't go overboard with 6" draintile, 3" would suffice. I've said it many times here, but from professional experience, if you lay the draintile correctly in a bed of stone, water won't even travel through the pipe, but through the lower stone. The draintile pipe is merely redundancy if the stone where to clog w/ silt. But then, the pipe won't be far behind in clogging either.

I would certainly install two sump crocks before installing 6" ext. & 4" int. pipe. Probably a wash cost wise. I would also install at least 18" dia. by 24" deep crocks, although 30" deep would be even better if you think you may have water table issues.

If you have the ext. already excavated, I take it you've found the cross bleeders through the footing?? How big are they? 3" concrete draintile? What is the spacing between them approx.? The reason I ask is the are probably going to be the weak link in the whole equation.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:01 PM   #5
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


Joe, sounds like good advice. I have been doing some more hardcore research. And the "exaggerated" water table, I found in another website. They called it fake. Just trying to understand fully. They didn't explain how it works but I tried to imagine a hole in the ground with a underground river. The hole will fill up faster and higher then the original water table. I think because the pressure keeps stacking more and more water up and the time to drain the water to lower elevation through the soil takes a lot more time.
Had to look up what a cross bleeder was too. lol. There are no cross bleeders that are currently installed. I was going to do that during my exterior drain installation to get all my work on the same page. Tomorrow I will be breaking up the interior floor to install my pipes. Why do you think that is the weak point if I did have existing cross bleeders already installed?
I still don't fully understand how the water will only travel through the gravel if the water table is higher then the gravel. My wifes dad definitely disagrees with my approach on this issue(Neither of us have experience). He feels that I am creating a system in which when the water table rises, the pipes will create the least resistance like my hole and my sump pumps won't be able to handle the constant flow. He thinks I should just back fill with just my waterproofing on. I do agree that I will have a lot of water to pump out. But I do not agree on not doing anything about the hydrostatic pressure on my walls and floor. I think if just back filled, the basement will do fine for years but sooner or later the pressure will find its way in. I don't want pressure on my basement.
So will someone please explain to me logically why I would not get massive amounts of water to my sump pump, when the water rises, if I install a exterior and interior drain system.
On a good note it does only take a few days for my water table to lower. Washington just got hit hard with snow and my water table has already lowered. So at least the water does go elsewhere.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #6
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


if you think of your bsmt as a ship's hull below the water line the solution may become more clear,,, ships use bilge pumps & many homes have sump pumps,,, we often install sumps & pumps OUTSIDE the bsmt wall to manage wtr leaks.

the ' false ' wtr table is due to surface water filtering down thru the uncompacted backfill,,, it does take time for collected water to percolate thru surrounding soil hence the addition of mechanical discharge ( pump ) - 1 caution - exterior pumps require a gfci protected dedicated electrical source.

we use 4" ads pipe - cheap & works as well as perforated 4" s&d pvc or sched 60 pvc,,, if you don't have enough capacity w/1 zoeller pump ( 1/3hp ), use 2
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if you hear it from a guy in the apron store, be VERY suspicious the mtl/method will work,,, when it time to build something together, they won't answer phones NOR help
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:27 PM   #7
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


I think I found my solution. Found a post that explained what happens to the water. http://www.cockam.com/watertab.htm

So what Joe was saying is that the water would travel through the lower stone if installed correctly. I can see that if the stone had an exit point. Like down hill. My neighborhood is pretty level. So I can not do a gravity drain. So my water will enter the pipe and be removed by the sump pump. I can see it draining through the rock to my sump pump, i guess. But I would have to lead the gravel to the sump pump.

I am pretty sure I will have a lot of water to pump out when it rains heavy or snow melting. From the website it sounds as though I am making a the water table artificially lower. The time the water table is artificially lowered depends on my french drain and how long it takes the other water to fill the void. The time to fill the void depends of how porous the soil around drain is(the undisturbed soil). I am pretty excited to see how this is going to work. I am going to be waiting for the water table to rise once done. But I am still going to slope the floor in case anything gets in.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:49 PM   #8
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daltinator View Post
Joe, sounds like good advice. I have been doing some more hardcore research. And the "exaggerated" water table, I found in another website. They called it fake. Just trying to understand fully. They didn't explain how it works but I tried to imagine a hole in the ground with a underground river. The hole will fill up faster and higher then the original water table. I think because the pressure keeps stacking more and more water up and the time to drain the water to lower elevation through the soil takes a lot more time.
Had to look up what a cross bleeder was too. lol. There are no cross bleeders that are currently installed. I was going to do that during my exterior drain installation to get all my work on the same page. Tomorrow I will be breaking up the interior floor to install my pipes. Why do you think that is the weak point if I did have existing cross bleeders already installed?

Because they'd be at a set height, that you couldn't change, that would likely be a few inches higher than the exterior tile.

I still don't fully understand how the water will only travel through the gravel if the water table is higher then the gravel.

Simply put, gravity always wins. If you bed the draintile in a few inches of stone, like it should be, the water will always gravitate down through the stone.

My wifes dad definitely disagrees with my approach on this issue(Neither of us have experience). He feels that I am creating a system in which when the water table rises, the pipes will create the least resistance like my hole and my sump pumps won't be able to handle the constant flow. He thinks I should just back fill with just my waterproofing on. I do agree that I will have a lot of water to pump out. But I do not agree on not doing anything about the hydrostatic pressure on my walls and floor. I think if just back filled, the basement will do fine for years but sooner or later the pressure will find its way in. I don't want pressure on my basement.

When you've gone this far, you certainly want to install int. & ext. draintile. You're suspusions are correct, the hdrostatic pressure will definately create problems down the road.

So will someone please explain to me logically why I would not get massive amounts of water to my sump pump, when the water rises, if I install a exterior and interior drain system.

Define "massive". When it's all backfilled & settled, with the soil shedding water as it should, the water should be minimal, even with a high water table. Most decent sump pumps should be able to pump a min. of 1000 gallons an hour.

On a good note it does only take a few days for my water table to lower. Washington just got hit hard with snow and my water table has already lowered. So at least the water does go elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daltinator View Post
I think I found my solution. Found a post that explained what happens to the water. http://www.cockam.com/watertab.htm

So what Joe was saying is that the water would travel through the lower stone if installed correctly. I can see that if the stone had an exit point. Like down hill. My neighborhood is pretty level. So I can not do a gravity drain. So my water will enter the pipe and be removed by the sump pump. I can see it draining through the rock to my sump pump, i guess. But I would have to lead the gravel to the sump pump.

I am pretty sure I will have a lot of water to pump out when it rains heavy or snow melting. From the website it sounds as though I am making a the water table artificially lower. The time the water table is artificially lowered depends on my french drain and how long it takes the other water to fill the void. The time to fill the void depends of how porous the soil around drain is(the undisturbed soil). I am pretty excited to see how this is going to work. I am going to be waiting for the water table to rise once done. But I am still going to slope the floor in case anything gets in.
What are you sloping the floor to, a drain that goes to the sanitary sewer? The reason I ask is because the sump crack has to be installed at least an inch above the highest point of the floor here to avoid pumping raw sewage into the yard.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:59 PM   #9
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Water in Basement. One last Question.


Thanks again for the post, Joe. I found some more similiar threads with post from you. You must get tired of the same questions. lol
I will be sloping the floor toward my sump pump. The sump pump will be lower then my floor. I have no sewage lines under my slab.
I found warnings about not digging below the footer. Before I found those warning I have already done that. Dug next to the exterior footer 12 inches down. My footer is only 2 inches thick and my floor about 6-9 inches thick. Looks as though there was a floor poured on top of the floor. That must of been the previous owners solution to the problem.lol. The reason I think that is because between the layers of floor there is tar paper. I don't know why you would pour, add tar paper, and then pour again. I will try to fix the undermining of the foundation footer by getting a compactor. Don't know what they look like but I heard of them.
By massive amounts of water, I mean my sump pump running constantly. I have times where my existing sump pump well is dry as a bone. But spring and snow melt times I am worried that the pumps will be on constantly. I will have people living down there. It will be a triplex when basement is finished and I don't want the noise to be unbearable, the motor life shortend, and wasted electricity.
I will post pictures of the interior and exterior drains before covered. I hate when people don't post their conclusion because their end result could of been way different from their original post.


Last edited by daltinator; 01-26-2012 at 12:03 AM.
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