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Old 06-07-2012, 02:16 PM   #1
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


First post to this forum, hoping someone can help.


We are starting a kitchen remodel and would like to remove a couuple of small walls. These are shown on the first image. The one with the X across it and the the one with the sheetrock removed. I have no issue moving all of the utilities currently in the wall but do have a big question abuot resupporting the ceiling joists above. Both the Kitchen and Dining room ceiling 3 x 10s overlap and are supported over the wall that we want to remove.
The 2nd picture shows the overlap.
The Dining room ceiling joists are also supported by the wall on the other side of the "Butler's pantry" and is shown in the 3rd picture covered by plastic sheeting. This wall is 30" from the wall that we would like to remove. The Kitchen and dining room joist pairs overlap by about 30" over the wall in question. They are on 12 centers. There are 6 pairs of joists in the area that would need to be addressed.

So my question is what would need to be done to the kitchen ceiling joists to properly support them. Currently the kitchen ceiling spans about 18.5 feet to the wall. It would be 21" to the other side of the butlers pantry.

Thanks in advance,
Stuart
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.-walls-remove.jpg   Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.-ceiling-joists.jpg   Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.-but-pantry-ceiling-overview.jpg  

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Last edited by sc204; 06-07-2012 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:23 PM   #2
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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Originally Posted by sc204 View Post
The one with the X across it and the the one with the sheetrock removed.
Look at the heavy piece of wood over the doorway opening.
Odds are that is a load bearing wall.

You need someone LOCAL to make these evaluations

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Old 06-07-2012, 02:28 PM   #3
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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Originally Posted by TarheelTerp View Post
Look at the heavy piece of wood over the doorway opening.
Odds are that is a load bearing wall.

You need someone LOCAL to make these evaluations
You replied while I was still trying to complete my post (I was having trouble getting the post to work)

The wall is definitely supporting the 2nd floor floor joists although it is not listed as a bearing wall in the house plans, but this is what they did while building. I have a similarly constructed wall 30" away, under the Dining room ceiling joists, same header behind the sheetrock.

So can this be done

Thanks
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:31 PM   #4
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


Just to clarify, do the joists run as per the red lines I added?
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:34 PM   #5
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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Just to clarify, do the joists run as per the red lines I added?
Yes sir on 12" centers.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:58 PM   #6
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


That's definitely a load bearing wall. Moving it would be a huge fuss, if it's even possible since it already span's a long ways (the fact the joists are 12" oc tells me they are near the end of their max span). Would you be willing to have a post where the corner of the wall is currently? If so you'll need to size a proper beam and ensure proper support below (aka, talk to someone who knows their building codes).
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:19 PM   #7
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


The span is one thing but I would suggest (and I stress this is a guess) the overlap is the deal breaker. You need support under those overlaps.

I think you need to get some professional input on this one.

But I am really interested to see the outcome of this sc204, so please post your findings.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:38 PM   #8
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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So can this be done?
ANYTHING can be done.

You still need someone LOCAL to make the specific evaluations
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:49 PM   #9
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


Quote:
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I have no issue moving all of the utilities currently in the wall
Do you realize what's involved in re-routing electrical runs? Unlike plumbing, you can't create a connection (junction box) and hide it. All junction boxes have to be accessible. So, unless you're already planning on potentially tearing down a lot of drywall in order to run new lines, or you're OK with creating unsightly access panels in your walls, rerouting the electrical is not something you should underestimate.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:07 PM   #10
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Do you realize what's involved in re-routing electrical runs? Unlike plumbing, you can't create a connection (junction box) and hide it. All junction boxes have to be accessible. So, unless you're already planning on potentially tearing down a lot of drywall in order to run new lines, or you're OK with creating unsightly access panels in your walls, rerouting the electrical is not something you should underestimate.
Thanks, that I am aware of. I have access to the area below (basement) and some of the runs I already know I have to redo. A bit of work but I know what I need to do for that.
Thanks.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #11
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


It can be done with nicrolams or 3/4" steel sandwiched between timbers. A big question then is the 'point-load' at the ends of the beams. An engineer will have to inspect and write up a plan to follow on this one. He'll be able to spec what is needed. No way you'll get great advice here from pix. You need somebody knowledgeable 'onsite' to point out the possible pitfalls to every action you perform there.
It's doable though!
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:30 PM   #12
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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It can be done with nicrolams or 3/4" steel sandwiched between timbers. A big question then is the 'point-load' at the ends of the beams. An engineer will have to inspect and write up a plan to follow on this one. He'll be able to spec what is needed. No way you'll get great advice here from pix. You need somebody knowledgeable 'onsite' to point out the possible pitfalls to every action you perform there.
It's doable though!
Thanks all for the help. May end up putting sheet rock back up as the cost of even getting plans for a fix may be out of budget
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:28 PM   #13
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


It's hard to tell from your pictures, but how much material is supporting the end of the header over the doorway? It looks like a single 2x4, which hardly seems enough.

And is the ceiling angled there? Hard to tell from the pix.

Where do the rest of the joists end? Is there another load bearing wall along the rest of the room?

What kind of support is underneath these locations? Is it properly supported? Or is there something worse lurking behind these walls?

Before you close it back up you still might want to get it examined. If just to make sure the arguably odd looking setup isn't hiding something a LOT worse.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:43 PM   #14
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


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It's hard to tell from your pictures, but how much material is supporting the end of the header over the doorway? It looks like a single 2x4, which hardly seems enough.

And is the ceiling angled there? Hard to tell from the pix.

Where do the rest of the joists end? Is there another load bearing wall along the rest of the room?

What kind of support is underneath these locations? Is it properly supported? Or is there something worse lurking behind these walls?

Before you close it back up you still might want to get it examined. If just to make sure the arguably odd looking setup isn't hiding something a LOT worse.

Agreed the end of the header is supported by a single 2 x 4. The 2 2 x4's above it is supported better on each end. Ceiling is not angled. The dining room ceiling joists are likely supported by the other end of the Butlers pantry, the plastic covered wall, although I have not pulled off that sheetrock. Kitchen ceiling joists are resting on this wall only though. Underneith is the main first floor floor support 3, 2 x 12 microlams. Should be pretty much directly underneath this wall.

I do have a contractor coming over this week to take a look. Dad of a friend so hopefully I will get an honest appraisal.

Stuart
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:14 PM   #15
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Wall removal, ceiling joist issue.


Its been a few weeks but we decided to go ahead with the project. As reccomended I did seak out professional help. Of course that has been reccomended to me for a long time but that is another story. The person making the kitchen cabinets used to be a GC and looked at it and felt it could easily be done with microlams. He also asked for another section of wall to come down to improve the looks of the kitchen As he was adding additional cabinetry to an already fixed price I couldn't complain. A coworker's dad is a seasoned GC and I asked him to take a look at it. He thought it would take a day of work, and showed me a pic of a recent job with a longer span that needed to be supported. He did get help on the load capacity and was told 2 2x10 microlams would work so he went with three.
Price was reasonable as well. Perhaps being a friend's dad helped.

After opening more of the wall additional wiring was revealed etc. The central vac and water lines to the heating system in the attic were fairly straight forward. They were moved to the dining room wall 30" away and ran across the ceiling to where they went up to the second floor through a wall above. First time I have worked with Pex and I really liked it. Never a fan of soldering copper. Of course one section of sheetrock in a finished basement ceiling area had to be cut away to get to the vac connections. The other area had a drop ceiling to work through.

Wiring took a while. Most of it was just rerouted with a couple of junction boxes above the drop ceiling below. One wire required a junction box in the closet next to the wall that would remain. (I now have an outlet in the closet).

Several wires were a challenge. They wett to the second floor and can seen just hanging in what used to tbe the curved wall. They took a strange route from the basement up as the area had a lot of support structure and little free space. There were 5 wires. I ended up unhooking them from the main circuit box and pulling them all the way free into the kitchen. Then I could rerun them through the ceiling and down through the remaining wall and back to the main panel. I did have to add about 8 feet to each line so junction boxes were placed in the basement ceiling. This is an area that will have a dropped ceiling if ever finished.

Cable, telephone lines and alarm wires were all just spliced to reroute them.

All in all took several weeks of working on it in between real work and sleeping.

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