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Old 08-30-2012, 09:47 AM   #46
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Unsafe Deck?


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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
As a deck builder I can tell you that is definitely an unsafe deck and if it were my deck I would temp it up very cautiously and notch the post and add full bearing double 2x. If this is something you haven't done before I would get a professional.
Hey Cali, hope you stick around, it can be fun helping people out around here and we could always use more professional opinions, it can be a little frustrating sometimes when people would rather listen to other DIYer's who've maybe built a deck once 20 years ago vs pro's who do it eveyday... but...

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Old 08-30-2012, 09:50 AM   #47
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OK, so being used as a beam is the problem. I agree with that 100%. If here were to simply add new support posts beneath the deck and install a girder supporting the deck resting atop the posts the single rim joist would be fine.

I just wanted to make sure the rim joist wasn't the issue, it was the fact it was being used as a support beam as well that was.

Thanks!
You are correct sir, although in this case adding in another beam would look quite silly unless you removed the old posts and bolted in the upper part for the railing. Of course we all assumed (me included) that the existing deck has good, properly sized footings already. If those are inadequate then it would be better to install a new beam 1-2' back from the end.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:18 AM   #48
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I don't recall you being the only person in this thread... You automatically assume I'm talking about you? Sounds to me like someone is sensitive to something.
The only person in this entire thread who defended that connection type was me. Your criticism was directly related to the support of side loaded beam connections.

If "arm chair quarterback" and "real world experience" statements weren't directed at me... then who were you talking to?
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
The only person in this entire thread who defended that connection type was me. Your criticism was directly related to the support of side loaded beam connections.

If "arm chair quarterback" and "real world experience" statements weren't directed at me... then who were you talking to?
Other people suggested just bolting, just re read the thread...
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:30 AM   #50
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But you are using (2) 2x12's correct?

Find me a span chart that shows a single 2x10 (or a single member 2x of any size) being used as a beam...
A 2x12 Southern Pine #1 can span 10 feet picking up tributary joist loading of 10' with 40 PSF Live and 10 PSF Dead load.

The OP rim joist span is 8' counting joist spacing and is picking up joist loading less than 10' (approximate).

The rim joist doesn't appear to be overloaded and it doesn't appear that a double rim joist would be necessary based on spans.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
A 2x12 Southern Pine #1 can span 10 feet picking up tributary joist loading of 10' with 40 PSF Live and 10 PSF Dead load.

The OP rim joist span is 8' counting joist spacing and is picking up joist loading less than 10' (approximate).

The rim joist doesn't appear to be overloaded and it doesn't appear that a double rim joist would be necessary based on spans.
I'm sorry, where is this span table? If it's not on accepted span tables then it must be stamped... So the OP should pay $500 to get a review and stamp to save $45 in lumber? Kind of an interesting approach.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:41 AM   #52
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OP,

here is a great article on things to keep in mind if you make the decision to go bolted connections.

http://staff.fit.ac.cy/eng.ma/BATECH08/Connections.pdf
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:44 AM   #53
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I'm sorry, where is this span table? If it's not on accepted span tables then it must be stamped... So the OP should pay $500 to get a review and stamp to save $45 in lumber? Kind of an interesting approach.
http://bis-tx.com/Headers%20and%20Be...d%20Design.pdf

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Old 08-30-2012, 10:49 AM   #54
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And this table is in the code books? I've never seen that one in the 10 code books I've got laying around, maybe I'll take a peek...

I've seen single "beams" used before, they usually have a nice bow in them 1.5"-2" at the center... Good workmanship there...
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:59 AM   #55
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Making assumptions that if one is educated by the book that they lack real world experience is common error. Some individuals decide to be on the other side of the plans after awhile and go on to earn a license.

Back to the topic.
I looked at your website, I figured if you did have "real world" experience that it would be part of your bio, I would think an archi with real world experience would be desirable and therefore included in your bio. Something along the lines of "Not only does Mr. so and so have the education of blah blah blah university but he spent X number of years as a whatever construction title, this gives Mr. so and so experience on both sides and allows him to recognize potential problems in the field before they happen"
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:02 AM   #56
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And this table is in the code books? I've never seen that one in the 10 code books I've got laying around, maybe I'll take a peek...

I've seen single "beams" used before, they usually have a nice bow in them 1.5"-2" at the center... Good workmanship there...
Look man. I don't know what your beef is. You apparently have an issue with me.

The sized tables are straight from the manufacturer. As such, they can provide the calcs, from their in house structural engineers, that would satisfy code requirements without paying anybody. The span tables provided in the code are there for reference, and prescriptive. Codes are also performance driven. Just like when you install a custom glu-lam, which is certified by the supplier.

As far as your claim of excessive deflection. The deck in the OP has been there for some time and exhibits no deflection in the rim joist.

I can appreciate the desire to overbuild things in an effort to provide quality workmanship to your clients, but there is a balance between quality and efficiency. This is precisely why design professionals make sense. In many instances I have seen contractors so over-build things, wasting clients money, that the project cost could be reduced even with hiring a design professional.

I am here to help the OP and others on this forum, not defend myself. There are multiple options to resolve the perceived inadequacy of the OP's deck. I am making sure that all options are suggested in an effort to be honest about options.

Last edited by jcarlilesiu; 08-30-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
I can appreciate the desire to overbuild things in an effort to provide quality workmanship to your clients, but there is a balance between quality and efficiency. This is precisely why design professionals make sense. In many instances I have seen contractors so over-build things, wasting clients money, that the project cost could be reduced even with hiring a design professional.
I use an engineer on 95% of my projects, I can appreciate design professionals, but using a single as a beam is just plain dumb, I would fire any archi or engineer who suggested using a single 2x12 to span 10' with a 10' deck load on it.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:39 AM   #58
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the span table above indicates that for a 10' span (OP said 8' span) with 10' floor joists (OP said 10' joists) a single ply 2x12 would meet code requirements. However the OP said he had 2x10 floor and rim joists.

also the span table is for interior use of southern pine. Once southern pine is incised and used in a wet condition my understanding is it only has about 85% of its original load capacity. Jumping back to the "Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide" Table 3 on page 5, a 8' clear span with 10' floor joists based upon pressure treated southern pine would require a (2) ply 2x10.

So Robert is correct in my opinion that a single ply 2x10 is insufficient as a beam based upon the span and tributary loading.

Now to whether the information contained in the Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide is code, or has the effect of code. Since I am not the AHJ I cannot say in this case if the building official will accept it as such, or if the ADJ or state have amended the IRC to include this document, however ....

The Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide by the American Wood Council/American Forest & Paper Association may not be an official part of the International Residential Code, however the Wood Frame Construction Manual by the AWC/AF&PA is under R301.1.1 Alternative provision, and R301.2.1.1 Design Criteria. The AF&PA's National Design Specification (NDS) is also referenced in the IRC. The span tables in the RWDC Guide as based upon span tables found in the Wood Frame Construction Manual. Also R502.3 Allowable joist spans references the AF&PA's Span Tables for Joists which the WFCM uses.

My thoughts would be whether or not it is an official part of the local building code, it would be difficult for the building official not to accept this document since it is prepared by the people that are referenced so many times as a design source by the code. Make sense?

Just my humble rambling ....

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