Tile shower walls using premade base-advice? - DIY Chatroom

ephnright · 08-08-2009, 10:05 AM

G'day, new to the site. I'm experienced in most areas of renos but havent tackled this before, want to do it right-- NO LEAKS!
Using 32" x 60" fibreglass premade pan and 2 sided glass enclosure w/door. There will be 2 tiled walls (one is exterior).
--Need to know correct way to install / seal cement board- direct over studs or blue board first? Membrane over the cement board?
-- how to mate bottom of cement board / tiles to the pan lip, etc.
-- use premix mastic adhesive for tiles? Tiles are approx. 3/4" x 3/4" sq.pieces. mosaic glass and ceramic, 12" x 12".
Thanks

Michael Thomas · 08-08-2009, 02:44 PM

Take a look here:

Substrate and ceramic tile installation for walls, floors, countertops and wall shields

and here

Tiling Installation Systems: Tile backerboards, mortars, mastics, grouts and accessories that work together flawlessly.

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Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson

ephnright · 08-08-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

Take a look here:

Substrate and ceramic tile installation for walls, floors, countertops and wall shields

and here

Tiling Installation Systems: Tile backerboards, mortars, mastics, grouts and accessories that work together flawlessly.

-----------
Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson

Exactly what I was after. Thanks bud!

**thekctermite** · 08-10-2009, 12:35 AM

First, NO MASTIC IN SHOWERS!!!!!!!!!!! Never! Always use thinset, preferably from a dry bagged mix. Mastic will fail in short order in wet areas.

Second, take a hard look at the Kerdi membrane system made by Schluter. Although you don't have to use their bases, they make some nice pre-fab cut-to-fit bases that make things really easy. The Kerdi system is leakproof and almost stupid-proof as well. It is the best way to get a leak free shower in my opinion, and it is easy to do. Youtube has some great install videos for Kerdi.

No blueboard or gypsum products. Use 1/2" backerboard straight to the studs with backerboard screws. Don't forget the important step of taping the seams with backerboard tape and "mudding" them with thinset. Otherwise you're guaranteed cracked grout joints.

ephnright · 08-10-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekctermite

First, NO MASTIC IN SHOWERS!!!!!!!!!!! Never! Always use thinset, preferably from a dry bagged mix. Mastic will fail in short order in wet areas.

Second, take a hard look at the Kerdi membrane system made by Schluter. Although you don't have to use their bases, they make some nice pre-fab cut-to-fit bases that make things really easy. The Kerdi system is leakproof and almost stupid-proof as well. It is the best way to get a leak free shower in my opinion, and it is easy to do. Youtube has some great install videos for Kerdi.

No blueboard or gypsum products. Use 1/2" backerboard straight to the studs with backerboard screws. Don't forget the important step of taping the seams with backerboard tape and "mudding" them with thinset. Otherwise you're guaranteed cracked grout joints.

Thanks for the no-mastic tip, still wasnt sure there. I also assume 1/8 joints and non sanded grout preferable as well. I will put the backerboard direct to studs.

wicked · 11-02-2009, 05:17 PM

I think I may be doing the same type of shower as you - a Schluter shower system. If I am right pull up their website Schluter.com and e-mail them for a free DVD which shows you the step by step procedures for this installation. They sent one to me and it is incredibly easy to follow and has both visual and verbal instruction. It also shows how to mortar over a wooden floor first and to install the premade tray directly over a concrete floor as is mine. It also shows tilng techniques and all the tools yo will need. I'm sure you will find this DVD as invaluable as I am.
Wicked

wbw · 11-02-2009, 05:36 PM

Did you also use a membrane on the walls before the tiles?
with the next-gen cement backerboard, I can not find any reference to using a membrane to "waterproof" the wall (?) think that is necessary?

ephnright · 11-02-2009, 08:57 PM

I didnt use the membrane. I put the cement board over the studs, taped seams with proper tape and mortar, tile direct to cement board. The cement board is over the lip of the shower pan. I sealed with 2 coats of grout sealer a month after. Worked out well. I have an access hole in the back wall and all is nice and dry. Make sure you block your cement board every 18" or so, use lots of durock or roockson screws specifically for cement bord.

wbw · 11-02-2009, 10:15 PM

Well, maybe I will get it right this time... plan to do what you just said...
tried barkerboard because of all the leaks from previous tile and could not find any arcrilic (sp?) sheets that did not cost me a new mortgage.

Barkerboard, in my books, has turned out to be nothing but junk as well...

Thanks for the tip!

wicked · 11-03-2009, 08:52 AM

Personally I would definitely use the membrane. The product is designed specifically to cover the whole interior of the shower and prevent water leakage. My thought is that it only takes the smallest thing to get a leak between the ties. A little movement of the house itself (this happened to me and causing cracking of the tiles of my upstairs bathroom and the house has been up for over 6 years). Whatever the reason may be a some point water may seep through the grout, particularly if you don't apply a grout sealer, then it doesn't mater what type of product you have on the walls the water will eventually ruin it.
I bought the entire Schluter kit which includes everythinig you would need. I think I paid about $500 from HD. Another post talked about the right type of thinset. I've done a lot of research on this job and have found out this aspect is very important too.
My comments for what they are worth. Good luck with your project.
Wicked

ccarlisle · 11-03-2009, 09:04 AM

ephnright, sorry to burst your bubble but you just made a 5-year shower. That's what we call showers that have not been waterproofed using a waterproofing membrane or liquid - and that fail in about 5 years...

You seem to think that concrete board is waterproof. It's not. It's a tiling support.

The good thing? you used a ready-made pan...at least you won't get leaks from the bottom of that.

I really think that - perhaps time constraints - shortened the time you should have taken for more research. You got some good advice here but I see it didn't work for you. And don't think that sealing the grout is going to be a saviour - it'll only delay the demise of your work.

wbw · 11-03-2009, 12:53 PM

Just been to HD and was told that they are probably going to phase out the membrane (orange stuff) for the walls. The guy there suggested a paint-on membrane: liquid rubber. Anyone hear of this new stuff? will it hold heavy tiles 12 in. by 12 in. or larger? Seems to get more confusing each day, and I really do not want to redo in five years or less since I am redoing it in 4 months or less right now!

NASCAR9 · 11-03-2009, 01:44 PM

If I were you, I would visit www.johnbridge.com. The information on that site is ONLY about Tile. Good Luck!

Mop in Hand · 11-03-2009, 08:46 PM

If you read carefully in the 2nd link that Michael Thomas provided you will find that in the shower wall construction that a membrane IS required, either behind the durarock or on the face of it. Installing a vapor barrier behind the cbu can be done with 6 mil plastic. Installing a membrane on the face of the cbu can be done with Redgard. One or the other but not both. Also when installing insulation behind the cbu it should be unfaced, so you do not create a moisture sandwich with 2 vapor barriers.

ephnright · 11-03-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccarlisle

ephnright, sorry to burst your bubble but you just made a 5-year shower. That's what we call showers that have not been waterproofed using a waterproofing membrane or liquid - and that fail in about 5 years...

You seem to think that concrete board is waterproof. It's not. It's a tiling support.

The good thing? you used a ready-made pan...at least you won't get leaks from the bottom of that.

I really think that - perhaps time constraints - shortened the time you should have taken for more research. You got some good advice here but I see it didn't work for you. And don't think that sealing the grout is going to be a saviour - it'll only delay the demise of your work.

Not worried. What did they do before the membrane? The 40 year old tiles I tore out were still in decent shape with no water damage to the old backer, it was plywood and plaster. We'll see. Talked to lots of tile guys and membranes arent the be all end all . Had I built my own pan then , yes, asolutely, would be required for the floor.