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Outdoorbum 12-14-2013 10:08 AM

Subfloor / Sole plate
 
3 Attachment(s)
This is my situation under a non load bearing wall. Any suggestions? Should I cross block and shim some 3/4" plywood under the plate? The plate itself has a lot of poorly made holes and the floor has a fair amount of rot but that rot doesn't go beneath the wall

I've also attached a photo of the plate and floor about 3 ft. to the right

joecaption 12-14-2013 11:10 AM

Interesting framing job.
Where's the ledger on the wall to attach the floor joist to?
Unpressure treated wood in direct contact with the block.

I would just add blocking to support the floor and leave what there under the plates.

cortell 12-14-2013 01:29 PM

I'm confused. We need some wider pictures to see what's going on there.

Also, the third picture shows blocking, but the first two don't. So, my guess is that blocking is holding up the wall except for at the end, and that's what you're asking about. How's my crystal ball working?

And, much like Joe, I'm wondering what the hell is holding up those joists? Wait...my crystal ball is lighting up again...is there post and beam going on there, and are those joists cantilevered?

joecaption 12-14-2013 01:34 PM

Does that soil pipe stick out beyond the bottom plate? Really should have been a 2 X 6 wall or at least shimmed out enough to clear the pipe.

Outdoorbum 12-15-2013 10:26 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a wider picture. The joists have a gap between the wall so there isn't direct contact with the block. Joe , I was going to block as you said but with no subfloor under that small plate area there would be a gap between my cross blocking and plate.

joecaption 12-15-2013 02:08 PM

Bare with me because I'm not there to see the whole big picture.
From what I can see if it was my job I'd use my ciruler saw and using the block wall as a guide I'd cut the ends of the joist.
Just about any ciruler saw from the edge of the plate to the blades is 1-1/2".
Then slide in a pressure treated ledger that has been pre drilled for clearance holes for 1/2" lag bolts. Slide it in place and mark where the holes are.
Remove it and drill the holes the size for lead anchors.
Put it back in, and lag it to the block.
Install joist hangers.
Reasons being there's nothing there now that not going to sag, nothing to keep the joist from tipping or twisting.
4 X 4's tend to twist curl and sag over time and should not have been used like that.
All those notches in the bottom plate are ugly but most likely are not doing any harm.
Add another joist right up near where that wall is to support the edge of the subfloor.

Gary in WA 12-15-2013 02:18 PM

IMHO, add blocking at the beam and 1-1/2" away from the CMUs. Add supporting 2xs flat at 16"oc under the wall between the joists. Canned foam/caulk at the joint between sheathings (old/new) to keep crawlspace air in crawl.http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...9_5_par028.htm

Add pipe nail protectors before drywall; PSPN- http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...nsp-pspnz.asp#

Gary
PS. Add some pipe straps to support the pipe from the joists.

cortell 12-15-2013 02:29 PM

You could get a lot of suggestions on what to fix with that framing. I looked at your original post. It sounds like your only concern is that the wall may not having proper support--the one with the two DWV pipes running through it. You're right about that. Now, there's another wall that may or may not be properly supported, which is mostly what Joe is trying to address. The wall that is up against the concrete block. That wall is bearing on cantilevered joists (it appears I guessed right). If that is a load bearing wall, that would be a serious issue and you would indeed need to, e.g., put a ledger as per joe. If it's not load bearing (and my guess is that is isn't, since it's against a block wall) then the cantilevered joists may or may not sufficiently support it. Hard to say. If you're not experiencing bounce or sag, you're probably fine.

So, back to the wall with the DWV pipes. Blocking would be the right way to support the wall. Forget about that little area of missing OSB. The blocking doesn't need to go there. Put it near that area. You should have blocking to support that wall 16"OC.

Outdoorbum 12-16-2013 02:38 PM

Well you guys have definitely given me more to think about. Cortell, no its not a load bearing wall but I'm going to tile that area so now wondering if Joe's ledger isn't a bad idea. I had planned on sistering the joists but now wonder if that won't be enough.

Gary, maybe I misread, but was wondering what you meant by "flat" 2x's at 16 in. OC? I thought the blocking would be vertically placed. Please excuse my ignorance on the matter.

Also, you all mention 1 1/2 " distance from the block wall. Is that a standard distance? The joist ends are currently about 1/2" off the wall.

joecaption 12-16-2013 02:44 PM

No, the 1-1/2" is so you can fit a ledger that should have been there in the first place.
The way it is now the framing is just floating.
For a tile floor to work nothing can be flexing or moving.

cortell 12-16-2013 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outdoorbum (Post 1279102)
Cortell, no its not a load bearing wall but I'm going to tile that area so now wondering if Joe's ledger isn't a bad idea. I had planned on sistering the joists but now wonder if that won't be enough.

Yeah. If you're going to tile, for sure support those joist ends with a ledger. It doesn't take a whole lot of give for grout to start cracking (or worse, tile), unless you use ditra, but even that may not save you.

Outdoorbum 12-16-2013 04:34 PM

I didn't realize there would be that much cantilever on those joist ends with that beam underneath being so close to the wall. When I demo'd the bathroom the only thing on the concrete block were furring strips for the tub surround to attach to, so no wall existed.

In my first picture you can see one of the wall studs (closest to the concrete) that is slightly raised from the sole plate being damaged, presumably from creating the plumbing hole they created initially? I'm not sure. Do you guys have any thoughts on that?

Outdoorbum 12-16-2013 04:49 PM

Also, would I be well advised to use some type of simpson bracket to stabilize those joists where they rest on the beams to help alleviate any twist? Some are poorly toenailed, others have nothing securing them to the beam

cortell 12-16-2013 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outdoorbum (Post 1279181)
I didn't realize there would be that much cantilever on those joist ends with that beam underneath being so close to the wall. When I demo'd the bathroom the only thing on the concrete block were furring strips for the tub surround to attach to, so no wall existed.

In my first picture you can see one of the wall studs (closest to the concrete) that is slightly raised from the sole plate being damaged, presumably from creating the plumbing hole they created initially? I'm not sure. Do you guys have any thoughts on that?

Well, like I said, the cantilever may or may not be a problem. If you have vinyl flooring and only a sink along that back wall, you might never experience a problem. If you have tile flooring, there's a reasonable chance of cracking. Bathtub along that wall, outlook gets worse.

The separation of the sole plate from the plywood subfloor is not surprising. The general rule is that nails need 11 diameters of penetration for full strength. A 10d common nail would thus need to sink into 1-3/8 of wood to hold at full strength. In your case, it's sunk into 1/2" of plywood. When you add blocking, you'll be able to address that.

As for your latest question...either toenail them better, or go above and beyond and use Simpson ties.

joecaption 12-16-2013 05:54 PM

There is no bracket that would stop them from twisting or tipping. Hurricane ties would hold the bottom in place but do nothing at the top.
What's the big deal about adding a ledger? It would be about 1/2 hour fix.


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