Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-23-2009, 10:19 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Share |
Default

Subfloor Help


I think I may have originally posted this in the wrong forum...sorry about that......

Hello,

My wife and I have a cabin in the north woods of Wisconsin. Itís old. We are slowly renovating the whole thing.


It has a subfloor with some type of particle board underlayment over the top of it throughout. The subfloor is fine. We sprayed in closed cell foam insulation in the crawl space between floor joists so I donít want to touch the subfloor but the underlayment on top of that is dried and cracked and bowed in some places and I would like to replace some or all of it before we put down hardwood floors and carpeting. My question is how do you remove the underlayment if the bottom plates for the walls were built on top of it? Do I just cut as close to the walls as I can and then just butt up the new underlayment to that? Are there special tools for this? Would a flush cut saw help me? Also what about room transitions? For example the same piece of underlayment extends from the hallway into one of the bedrooms. The underlayment in the bedroom wasnít bad so that floor has already been carpeted but the underlayment in the hallway isnít so good so I need to cut it out and replace it. It will receive hardwood in the future. How do you cut the underlayment across the door opening and make it flush up with the new?

Sorry if these questions are confusing. I am just trying to figure out how to replace the underlayment when the walls are built on top of it and when some rooms need replacing and some donít.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:19 AM   #2
Not so new
 
12penny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Posts: 932
Default

Subfloor Help


Tom....I would probably use a skill saw set to the depth of the particle board and run it around the perimeter of the room.

Is it possible to leave it and run more over the top? Would be a lot easier to put down 1/4" luan or even 1/2 particle board.

Of course though, I'm not there to see it.

12penny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:26 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


In some cases we could probabaly go over it but in other cases it's really cracked and humped or bowed and i think would need to be removed so we can put down a nice level surface.

If we did go around the room with the circular saw that would leave a couple of inches around the perimeter. Would you just butt the new stuff up to that?
Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 12:47 PM   #4
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,968
Default

Subfloor Help


Are you sure the underlayment goes under the walls? I started framing in the early '70's and standard practice was install sub-floor, build walls, roof, etc. roofing (dry in), then underlayment after drywall and texture. Which is the same today.
If you add material, be sure the dishwasher will fit (and refer, if built in). Yes, toe-kick saw will work, under $70 at H.F.

If hardwood over- just saw close (1-1/2" as mentioned as the hardwood won't be nailed that close to the wall into the p.b. but rather into new plywood (for the nail holding) anyway.
Be safe, Gary
Gary in WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 01:27 PM   #5
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,094
Default

Subfloor Help


I wouldn't consider going over particleboard, especially with another layer. Just asking for more trouble. Tear it out and replace with plywood. I'm with GBAR that the particleboard doesn't run under the plates (I started in the trades in '73). Particleboard was normally installed after drywall/before trim. Cabinets came later, so it likely goes under them. Some of the more conscientious (or wiser) builders DID use plywood in kitchen, bath, and laundry rooms. Another option for cutting is a "multi-tool". Has lots of uses. The Dremel runs about $100.00 at HD or Lowes. I'd recommend it if you have to get under the toe-kick under the cabinets. IF the stuff runs under the plates, the toe-kick saw (or jamb saw) will suit your needs a lot better. I got one a few years back at HD for around $100.00 I think. The "China Freight" will likely be fine for your purposes though....
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 01:39 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


i'll check again but I am almost certain the plate is on top of the underlayment. This place was built sometime back in the early to mid 70s and as we are re-doing everything we are finding that very little was done in a standard fashion.....lets just say a lot of conrners were cut......most of the of the area in question will have carpet over it but the real reason i want the underlayment out is that some of it is cracked...it creaks and squeaks in some spopts and it's bowed and warped in others.....and it has some type of glue on it...i am guessing they had some type of vinyl tile or something like that throughout the main living area at some point prior to the current carpet that's on it now..
Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 02:09 PM   #7
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,094
Default

Subfloor Help


Anything is possible, but the main reason I'd say no to the particle board running under the plates is that it most likely wouldn't have survived until the place was "dried in" and sealed up. The stuff would have gone to pieces before the house was done. Now if what you have is not actually particle board, then it may be possible. Particle board is basically "sawdust" glued into a 4'x8' sheet. Introduce ANY moderate amount of water and is swells, cracks, falls apart. I find it hard to believe the framing, roof, window/door installation were all completed before moisture (rain, heavy dew, high humidity) affected the particle board. You may have OSB (oscillated strand board) which looks more like large "flakes" of wood glued together in sheets. It is more weather resistant with the correct type used (exterior glue). That could have been used as a second layer of flooring before the walls were stood up......
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 02:17 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


Quote:
Originally Posted by bjbatlanta View Post
Anything is possible, but the main reason I'd say no to the particle board running under the plates is that it most likely wouldn't have survived until the place was "dried in" and sealed up. The stuff would have gone to pieces before the house was done. Now if what you have is not actually particle board, then it may be possible. Particle board is basically "sawdust" glued into a 4'x8' sheet. Introduce ANY moderate amount of water and is swells, cracks, falls apart. I find it hard to believe the framing, roof, window/door installation were all completed before moisture (rain, heavy dew, high humidity) affected the particle board. You may have OSB (oscillated strand board) which looks more like large "flakes" of wood glued together in sheets. It is more weather resistant with the correct type used (exterior glue). That could have been used as a second layer of flooring before the walls were stood up......
Thank you so much for your help.........It's not OSB that i do know...in fact i was going to put OSB down once i get this stuff up......It trully is some type of particle board as you have described........what you said makes perfect sense about not using particle board before the place was enclosed......I need to check again to make sure I am not going crazy..........i wonder if i should just go around and see if I can't somehow get the current underlayment more secure and just do a sheet of luan or something over that.....
Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 02:27 PM   #9
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,094
Default

Subfloor Help


Once particle board "buckles" it will normally just fall apart if you try to nail/screw it back down. The problem with going over it with luan (which doesn't do well with water either) is that if you get any water intrusion (broken pipe, toilet/tub/washer/ dishwasher overflow) the water will get between the joints of whatever you use on top. You have the same problem, but now you have to pull up the luan AND particle board. Sometimes the easiest fix isn't the best.....
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 02:36 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


Quote:
Originally Posted by bjbatlanta View Post
Once particle board "buckles" it will normally just fall apart if you try to nail/screw it back down. The problem with going over it with luan (which doesn't do well with water either) is that if you get any water intrusion (broken pipe, toilet/tub/washer/ dishwasher overflow) the water will get between the joints of whatever you use on top. You have the same problem, but now you have to pull up the luan AND particle board. Sometimes the easiest fix isn't the best.....
hmmmm...so if it was you would you try to pull out as much of the underlayment as possible and replace with OSB and try to flush/level it with the stuff i can't get out?
Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 03:52 PM   #11
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,094
Default

Subfloor Help


That would be my plan of attack. I wouldn't set myself up for failure down the road by covering up the mess somebody else made. Get rid of the "problem" so it doesn't come back later and you're saying, "gee I wish I had gone ahead and pulled all of that c**p out the first time. Especially if this "cabin" is not your permanent residence and there are times when you are away and inclement weather could burst a pipe unexpectedly. (An early "cold snap" you weren't expecting and hadn't "winterized yet....)
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 03:58 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


Quote:
Originally Posted by bjbatlanta View Post
That would be my plan of attack. I wouldn't set myself up for failure down the road by covering up the mess somebody else made. Get rid of the "problem" so it doesn't come back later and you're saying, "gee I wish I had gone ahead and pulled all of that c**p out the first time. Especially if this "cabin" is not your permanent residence and there are times when you are away and inclement weather could burst a pipe unexpectedly. (An early "cold snap" you weren't expecting and hadn't "winterized yet....)
kool...that's what I'll do then.....when putting down the new OSB do you use adhesive and screws or just screws?...does it matter if you screw on floor joists or can i just go into the subfloor anyhere? ..sorry I am so new at this tuff...
Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 04:10 PM   #13
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,094
Default

Subfloor Help


Second layer isn't normally glued. I would be sure to "stagger" the "butt" joints from the joist they break (and stagger the "long" joint) on with the first layer and screw into the joists. Will give make for a more rigid floor.
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:32 PM   #14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,968
Default

Subfloor Help


"in fact i was going to put OSB down once i get this stuff up." ----- under the carpet, fine. Not under the hardwood, it won't hold a nail on a 45*. Use a vapor barrier under the plywood, not to absorb moisture from below: http://www.fortifiber.com/aquabar_b.html H.D. carries it.
Be safe, Gary
Gary in WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2009, 08:50 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 65
Default

Subfloor Help


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
"in fact i was going to put OSB down once i get this stuff up." ----- under the carpet, fine. Not under the hardwood, it won't hold a nail on a 45*. Use a vapor barrier under the plywood, not to absorb moisture from below: http://www.fortifiber.com/aquabar_b.html H.D. carries it.
Be safe, Gary
Hey Gary,

Thanks for te heads up. Since I will have a combination of carpet and hardwood should i just go with plywood over the entire thing instead of OSB?

We actually have closed cell foam between the floor joists under the subfloor in the crawl space which acts as a fairly good vapor barrier.......do you think I still need some sort of vapor barrier between the subfloor and new layer of plywood?

Tom5151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.