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Old 08-06-2006, 10:30 PM   #16
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Joasis opined:

Quote:
"You still didn't admit your mistake on the lally collumns...."
I reply:

I have yet to be notified of any mistakes.

If you know of one, please cite it.

Otherwise, here is an Army Corp's site which illustrates structural failures from horizontal wind loads in Oklahoma in 1999:

http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/Librar...99/1999-02.PDF

Here's more evidence of structures in Oklahoma that failed from horizontal wind loads:

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news...rmy-week_x.htm

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Last edited by manhattan42; 08-06-2006 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:55 PM   #17
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Just curious dhenrycpa, are the post bolted to the floor or just sitting on it. Either way a 7 or 8' 3" post whether welded or bolted to the steel beam and or bolted to the floor is not going to stop lateral movement. The most inportant aspect of welding or bolting it to the beam is to keep any accidental striking force from moving it from true plumb thus causing failure.

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Old 08-07-2006, 05:05 AM   #18
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Well manhatten...didn't I say tornados?...failing in a wind of 150 or 200+ mph will not prove anything. Every filmed event of a house failing in a tornado typically shows the roof being peeled off, and then catastrophic failure of the structure. What exactly does that have to do with lally collumns? When we erect steel buildings in Oklahoma, They meet codes for our area, 80 mph wind load. A tornado striking a steel building will also cause a catastrophic failure, and I suppose to your thinking, lateral dysfuntional failure.

Stick to your research long enough, I am sure you will find a home collapse caused by the failure of collumns in a basement that although loaded vertically, some event caused a lateral load and presto..down it came....I am surpised you haven't found an earthquake in my area that caused damage yet...but I am going to be sure and watch for product labeling and see that anything we use on a constrution site will meet your standards...
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:13 AM   #19
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The code requirements for the connection of steel support posts are intended to prevent them from being dislodged by a sudden unexpected horizontal force. The tabs on the posts in question are intended to hold them in place until welding or bolts can be added. To suggest that such a bolted or welded connection might provide lateral bracing to resist wind or earthquake loads is structural naivety. Such a design would require vertical stiffner plates welded to the sides of the beam and a much larger stiffer column (like a wide flange) and engineer designed moment resisting connections top and bottom with an appropriate foundation.

The column connection in question is only for the purpose of keeping the column attached to the beam until the beam has moved horizontally so much that the column can no longer provide vertical load resistance. It is not intended to resist the movement of the beam in any way. In a residence, such forces are expected to be resisted by the the exterior walls, floors and perimeter foundation rather than basement girder supports.
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Old 12-23-2006, 09:38 AM   #20
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I joined this forum specifically to get away from ICC forum. I saw the same picture there and same "everything should be engineered responses".
My take on the hole thing is that they have completely lost sight of "cost vs benefit". I saw something on TV about there are 100 MILLION
homes in the U.S.
What percentage catostrophically self destruct? What percentage are cataclysmic events like earthquakes, tornados etc.?
You can't prepare for events like that w/o spending insane amounts of $$$ for an earthquake/fire/tornado proof structure.
My biggest beef is with fire. They are going to push & push until every home built must be sprinklered. They totally blatantly lie about the true cost and use statistics such as 4,000 people die in fires per year.
What is the math on 4,000 people compared to amount of people living in 100 MILLION houses?!
Compare that firgure to auto accidents.
How much can you count yourself out of that 4,000 simply by NOT using candles, not smoking, not leaving your christmass tree lit when your not home etc etc.
No ammount of ludicrous (we must do it at any cost) spending and regulations is going to save every life.
We just had a rash of morons dieing around Seattle because they run a generator in there living rooms!
Why not worry about why doesn't "code" require retro fir every house in America with something that IS cost effective and WOULD save lives?
I bet you could save more lives just by installing CO detectors & hard wired smoke alarms in EVERY home. This could easily be paid for by not wasting money worrying about bolts every 3" and "window gaurds" and on and on the list goes - where it will stop nobody knows.........
Like any other govnmt thing - it may start out with good intentions but after awhile it just turns into spending more and more taxpayer money in order to justify keeping their jobs while requireing more & more specialized / engineered metal & plastic equipment that can only be installed by liscenced "PROS" charging huge amounts of cash.
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Old 12-24-2006, 01:00 AM   #21
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I generally think the less "big brother" watching over my shoulder, the better I like it. The building codes have a purpose...what gets me is the pea brained metality of some inspectors when applying the codes, per Manhatten42...how would you like that failed contractor turned inspector crawling up your tail on a job over issue he clearly has no real time understanding of "for your own safety?" The issue with sprinklers is goingt too far...kind of like seat belts in a personal auto...We already install hard wired smoke alarms in all new construction....
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:52 PM   #22
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Wannabuild, do you get a notice in the mail whenever a house has a major structural failure due to construction defects? Have you ever taken a course or read a book about structural failures? If not, where did you develop the strong opinions you have expressed here? You appear to be completely unaware of the epidemic of structrual problems in new home construction that has been getting steadily worse during the past 25 years.

For single family houses:

The average frequency of major structural damage due to new construction defects and the average frequency of major fire damage is almost the same (1.0% and 0.9%)

The average repair cost of structural claims ($30,000) is generally more than the average repair cost of fire damage claims ($5,000 to $32,000).

The structural design of homes should not be a casual game of intuitive presumptuous guessing. Only a fool or a construction novice would fail to attach a post to a beam and to a floor and that's all the code is trying to prevent ... fools building buildings and causing damage to people and property.

You mention how effective smoke detectors are and yet you seem to be unaware that their existence in homes is attributable to building codes and that they are now required by all modern building codes for new construction and in most jurisdictions must be installed in existing houses whenever they are sold. None of this would have happened without building codes.

Building codes are a PITA but as long as untrained amateurs are allowed to design and build houses without professional review or supervision, they are the only way to offer the public any measure of protection.

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