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Old 01-25-2011, 02:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ubenhad4 View Post
What do you think paint is?
unless it is rated as a vapor retarder, it's just paint.

but if it is rated as a vapor retarder, doesn't that kill your argument about wanting the moisture to pass through the wall?

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Old 01-25-2011, 02:52 AM   #32
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These systems are not that difficult to understand but there is a ton of misinformation out there based on opinions.:
You can say that again
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ubenhad4 View Post
Yes you can foam osb. Osb has more ability than ply to more moisture through it. You need to make sure you have a drain screen on the out side to let the moisture out. These systems are not that difficult to understand but there is a ton of misinformation out there based on opinions. Ive been to a number of classes and seminars on just this subject based upon sustainability. We go round and round about products and assemblies. Houses have to have the ability to shed moisture from condinsation inside the wall cavity. It has to either go into the house or outside. Paint and primer make it so it need to be able to escape outside.
That's the essence of it, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to an optimum construction. I keep looking for answers and just find more questions.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:02 PM   #34
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That's the essence of it, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to an optimum construction. I keep looking for answers and just find more questions.
a good place to start is the IRC. Not only are the requirements derived due to improvements in technology, it also responds to realization of functionality. On top of that, if you build where code compliance is important, those are the rules you will have to follow.

One thing to watch out for is anybody who claims miraculous results with a system only they endorse. There are a lot of times a person will use some self contrived building system that happens to work great for them. The problem is; unknowingly, they situation is unusual and using that same system in a typical build might result in disaster.

One of my favorites is EIFS in residential use (thats where you put foam on the outside of a building and slathered it with a stucco type material). In theory it's great. In certain environments, it's great. In others, as many have since learned, it is not only impractical but was the cause of a lot of damage to the wall structure due to retained moisture in the wall. The system hadn't been perfected yet and simply allowed for water to accumulate in the wall. Never a good thing. There have since been improvements to the system but it still is problematic in certain situations.

Anytime somebody starts touting a new system or claims theirs is the solution to all your problems, while I'm not saying they are wrong but especially since their system is contrary to standard recognized methods, it needs to be viewed with a bit of skepticism. Until it is "time tested" and "time proven", you need to be cautious of grabbing such a system.

Any system needs to be able to be described in a manner as to why it is beneficial. ubenhad has done that with his, for the most part. The only problem I have with his system are twofold; I find different R values than he claims making his not as great as an improvement as he claims and his statement about a plastic vapor barrier. He stated he wants the moisture to permeate the wall and escape to the exterior. Yet when I questioned him about it, he comes back with "paint is the vapor barrier". Well, either you want a vapor barrier or you don't. Paint can be a vapor barrier but it isn't always. Plus, not all walls are painted. I simply believe his exclusion of a purposeful and intentional vapor barrier is incorrect in his system. The rest makes a lot of sense to me.

But, as you had stated; there is no one method is perfect. Each have negatives. Most often, in our society, it is a cost v. benefit argument. That is why glass is so popular. It is relatively cheap (compared to it's competitors) and it provides an acceptable level of insulation in most needs. Is there better? sure but better generally costs more. People are dollar driven and often accept the less efficient to save a buck. We live in the here and now rather than the "what will my utility bills be in 10 years based on my decisions today".
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:09 PM   #35
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My system is not self contrived it has been extensivly reasearched by earth advantage. Heating and cooling days and climate has a ton to due with what system you should use, Arizona has much different weater than us.

Eifs has been outlawed in residential construction here.

Anytime somebody starts touting a new system or claims theirs is the solution to all your problems, while I'm not saying they are wrong but especially since their system is contrary to standard recognized methods, it needs to be viewed with a bit of skepticism. Until it is "time tested" and "time proven", you need to be cautious of grabbing such a system.

Any system needs to be able to be described in a manner as to why it is beneficial. ubenhad has done that with his, for the most part. The only problem I have with his system are twofold; I find different R values than he claims making his not as great as an improvement as he claims and his statement about a plastic vapor barrier. He stated he wants the moisture to permeate the wall and escape to the exterior. Yet when I questioned him about it, he comes back with "paint is the vapor barrier". Well, either you want a vapor barrier or you don't. Paint can be a vapor barrier but it isn't always. Plus, not all walls are painted. I simply believe his exclusion of a purposeful and intentional vapor barrier is incorrect in his system. The rest makes a lot of sense to me.

But, as you had stated; there is no one method is perfect. Each have negatives. Most often, in our society, it is a cost v. benefit argument. That is why glass is so popular. It is relatively cheap (compared to it's competitors) and it provides an acceptable level of insulation in most needs. Is there better? sure but better generally costs more. People are dollar driven and often accept the less efficient to save a buck. We live in the here and now rather than the "what will my utility bills be in 10 years based on my decisions today".[/quote]


What differences in R values? This does not suprise me as what an insulations R value is and what your walls come out at are 20 to 30 % different because of thermal bridging. Ive played devils advocate at alot of these classes as I look at it from more than just an energy perspective. Having money on heating and cooling is great, unless you destroying your health and building structure in the process.

Paint and primer are infact vapor barriers most are vapor retarders, I suppose flats are not, and code says this to. Perm ratings under one are needed to stop vapor migration. I said I dont want to trap the moisture in the wall cavity. The wall cavity start at the interior paint and ends at the exterior paint. I dont want to have moisture caught between the paint and the plastic barrier. I have been involved an the demo and framing contractor on more than a few remodels and have seen mold 1/2 thick on the back side of the drywall between the drywall and plastic. I have never seen this without plastic. Without plastic the mold grows on the interior side of the wall.

Perm ratings of common building materials

Material Thickness Permeance
1

Structural Materials


Concrete (1:2:4 mix) 1 3.2



2

Brick masonry 4 0.8


2

Concrete block 8 2.4


2

Plaster on wood lath 3/4 11.0


3

Gypsum wall board 3/8 50.0


2

Exterior plywood 1/4 0.7


2

Interior plywood 1/4 1.9


2

Thermal Insulations


Air (still) 1 120.0



2

Extruded polystyrene 1 0.4-1.2


4

Expanded polystyrene 1 2.0-5.8


4

Polyisocyanurate 1 (foil face) 0.05


4

Polyisocyanurate 1 (no foil) 26.0


Plastic Films and Metal Foils



Aluminum foil 1 mil 0


Polyethylene 4 mil 0.08


Polyethylene 6 mil 0.06


Polyethylene cross laminated


high density (Tu-Tuff™) 4 mil 0.02


Building Paper, Felts and Roofing Papers


Saturated and coated rolled roofing 0.05


Kraft paper and asphalt laminated


reinforced 30-120-30 0.3


Kraft thermal insulation facing 1.0


4

Foil thermal insulation facing 0.5


4

15 lb. asphalt felt 1.0


Olefin, spunbond high density fiber



(Tyvek™, Parsec™) 94.0


4

Material Permeance


1

Paints (1 coat)


Vapor retarder paint 0.6-0.9



5

Selected primer-sealer paint 0.9


5

Primer-sealer 6.28


Vinyl-acrylic primer 8.62



Semi-gloss vinyl-acrylic enamel 6.61


Paints (2 coats)


Aluminum varnish on wood 0.3-0.5


Enamels on smooth plaster 0.5-1.5


Various primers plus 1 coat


flat oil paint on plaster 1.6-3.0

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Old 01-25-2011, 10:29 PM   #36
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Waymo, That one link didn’t work so I copied my answers on OSB;

The vapor barrier is probably not required in the U.S., where are you located?

The fiberglass comes with or without convective loops, your choice; “How to” buy/choose fiberglass insulation.

The OSB needs to breath. You want to stop the moisture coming from the house with a vapor retarder, possibly just paint on the drywall, again, your location?

OSB is worse than plywood for drying out or letting moisture through from the inside room, it takes so long, there is a good opportunity for mold growth. It is acting as a vapor barrier; “There are more differences in hygroscopic properties between OSB and plywood and fiberboard, especially the vapor permeability and moisture diffussivity. As shown in Table below, the value of vapor permeability of a OSB board is one magnitude less than the wood and much less than that of the plywood panels. Using of OSB as wall sheathing is essentially adding a vapor barrier at the outside layer of the envelope in addition to the inside barrier.” Compare what I used BOLD on above to the chart- twice as hard for moisture from inside to leave(vapor permeability) and ten times less diffusivity than plywood; http://alcor.concordia.ca/~raojw/crd/essay/essay000129.html

Seattle, in WA State has 36” annual rainfall and they won’t use it; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...JSz4eA&cad=rja

Building Science explains it well, and don't use SPF with OSB; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...d%20in%20walls

Typar (11.7 perms) will prolong the drying of OSB from 12 days (Tyvek 58 perms.) to 40 days encouraging mold, page 15, Fig. 15; http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream...pdf?sequence=4

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Old 01-25-2011, 10:48 PM   #37
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Quote:
=ubenhad4;577990]My system is not self contrived it has been extensivly reasearched by earth advantage.
I don't know who Earth Advantage is but a quick look at their website looks like an advertising page for a bunch of companies. Anytime you get a group so heavily supported by manufacturers, you tend to lose objectivity. Not saying it is that way, just looks like that with a quick look.



Quote:
Heating and cooling days and climate has a ton to due with what system you should use, Arizona has much different weater than us.
absolutely. Never said anything different.

Quote:
Eifs has been outlawed in residential construction here.
ok. and the point? I used it as an example of what happens when somebody gets a bright idea and there is not proper research done before crowning it as the best thing since sliced bread.






Quote:
What differences in R values? This does not suprise me as what an insulations R value is and what your walls come out at are 20 to 30 % different because of thermal bridging. Ive played devils advocate at alot of these classes as I look at it from more than just an energy perspective. Having money on heating and cooling is great, unless you destroying your health and building structure in the process.
post your numbers for glass, blown in celllulose (dry and or wet), closed cell and open cell foam (there are several types that do have different ratings) and rigid foam board (there are 3 main types if I'm not mistaken) and I will post the numbers I have found to be inconsistent. I am talking about simple base R values per inch. That is not totally indicative of how effective an insulation is as there is more to insulation than the R value. I presume that was the numbers you were using to calculate your wall though.

.
Quote:
Paint and primer are infact vapor barriers most are vapor retarders, I suppose flats are not, and code says this to.
paint is a vapor barrier if it is designed to be a vapor barrier.
r.
Quote:
I have been involved an the demo and framing contractor on more than a few remodels and have seen mold 1/2 thick on the back side of the drywall between the drywall and plastic. I have never seen this without plastic. Without plastic the mold grows on the interior side of the wall.
I have never seen this, nor has any contractor or DIY'er I know. Maybe it's a problem in your area. Maybe there are other reasons it is a problem that builders in your area are not paying attention to.

as to paint being a vapor barrier; by looking at the numbers you posted,


Quote:
1

Paints (1 coat)


Primer-sealer 6.28


Vinyl-acrylic primer 8.62



Semi-gloss vinyl-acrylic enamel 6.61
let's see. The best paint not specifically formulated to be a vapor barrier is the 6.28, right?

Compare that to some of the other materials.

Polyethylene 4 mil 0.08
Expanded polystyrene 1 2.0-5.8

Interior plywood 1/4 1.9 1/2" interior grade plywood is over 3 times better at resistance to moisture permeation than the paint.

heck, a concrete block is better and resisting moisture than the paint:

Concrete block 8 2.4

Like I said; if the paint is designed to be a vapor retarder, then it can be an effective vapor retarder. You mentioned nothing in your original construction design about including a vapor retarder paint.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:28 PM   #38
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[quote=nap;578020]I don't know who Earth Advantage is but a quick look at their website looks like an advertising page for a bunch of companies. Anytime you get a group so heavily supported by manufacturers, you tend to lose objectivity. Not saying it is that way, just looks like that with a quick look.

What companies? Certainteed siding? The rest are utility companies.

All real r values for a wall have to be figured with window openings lumber used outlet boxes ect.
For 5 1/2 in wall
Blown in blanket is r 23
Batts r 21
ridged foil faced r 6.5 to 8
ridged blue board extruded polysterene r 5
ridged styrofoam expanded polystyrene looking is r 4

open is r 3 to 4 per inch
closed is R 6 to 7 per inch


We have built several homes with a stagard stud exterior walls. This also helps stop thermal bridging. Double walls almost eliminate it to. Foam on the outside is the only way to completly disolve the thermal bridge. You cannot argue with this. Only partially filling the cavity stops air movement, and blowing in the rest provides the r values. The biggest thing that kills insulations insulating propeties is air flow and moisture. period.


Talk to some more contractors. Especially bath and kitchen remodlers. They have seen this mold before. Mold almost is a non issue where I live However in the willamette valley where I had my contracting company for 6 years has abundant mold and water infiltration issues. As far as the paint being a no vapor barrier, I pupose some paints are not. I have never ever seen one.




post your numbers for glass, blown in celllulose (dry and or wet), closed cell and open cell foam (there are several types that do have different ratings) and rigid foam board (there are 3 main types if I'm not mistaken) and I will post the numbers I have found to be inconsistent. I am talking about simple base R values per inch. That is not totally indicative of how effective an insulation is as there is more to insulation than the R value. I presume that was the numbers you were using to calculate your wall though.


I belive I did talk about paint Ill go check if not my bad. Its my job as a general contractor to know and verify the information companies provide and the research they provide about products. I never have nor would I ever put together my own system without the research from a controlled and accredited facility saying what the pros and cons are.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by GBR in WA
Waymo, That one link didn’t work so I copied my answers on OSB;

The vapor barrier is probably not required in the U.S., where are you located?

The fiberglass comes with or without convective loops, your choice; “How to” buy/choose fiberglass insulation.

The OSB needs to breath. You want to stop the moisture coming from the house with a vapor retarder, possibly just paint on the drywall, again, your location?

OSB is worse than plywood for drying out or letting moisture through from the inside room, it takes so long, there is a good opportunity for mold growth. It is acting as a vapor barrier; “There are more differences in hygroscopic properties between OSB and plywood and fiberboard, especially the vapor permeability and moisture diffussivity. As shown in Table below, the value of vapor permeability of a OSB board is one magnitude less than the wood and much less than that of the plywood panels. Using of OSB as wall sheathing is essentially adding a vapor barrier at the outside layer of the envelope in addition to the inside barrier.” Compare what I used BOLD on above to the chart- twice as hard for moisture from inside to leave(vapor permeability) and ten times less diffusivity than plywood; http://alcor.concordia.ca/~raojw/crd/essay/essay000129.html

Seattle, in WA State has 36” annual rainfall and they won’t use it; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...JSz4eA&cad=rja

Building Science explains it well, and don't use SPF with OSB; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...d%20in%20walls

Typar (11.7 perms) will prolong the drying of OSB from 12 days (Tyvek 58 perms.) to 40 days encouraging mold, page 15, Fig. 15; http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream...pdf?sequence=4

Gary
I'm in east Texas Gary. The setup I have now is osb exterior sheathing with Hardy board siding. I'm working electrical now so I will be insulating soon. I'm caulking the siding as well. Does this help @ all?

And of course there is house wrap on the osb.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:36 PM   #40
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You guys may can give me some help with this insulation ? as well. Thanks ahead of time...

Floor Insulation on pier & beam home
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:39 AM   #41
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What companies? Certainteed siding? The rest are utility companies.
Carrier
Certainteed
Northwest energy star homes
Jacobs Heating and AC
Energy Trust of Oregon


Oh wait, here's a utility company- Portland General Electric

There is only one utility and 5 that aren't.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:26 AM   #42
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Energy trust and energy star are certification programs. Did you actually look at what they were? We have some developments here that require energy and green building certifications in order to build there. Those two programs are great programs. I can show you 5000 sq ft houses that cost under $30 per month in electric, thanks to these guys R&D, and inspections.

Jacobs heating is just a HVAC contractor out of portland, and they install carrier. Carrier is not a sponsor. Jacob probably puts on some of the classes about heating and cooling energy savings.

I said certainteed was. There pretty proactive in developing the rain screens and other exterior house beathable wrbs.

BUT YOUR RIGHT. I know nothing.

What about those different r values you were going to enlighten us with?

Last edited by ubenhad4; 01-26-2011 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:29 AM   #43
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Insulation isnt a DIY thing period. Everyone thinks if you DIY youll save money. I have seen a ton of insulation bid that were cheaper with install than I could buy the material from my supplier for. I get really good prices from my supplier to. Isulation is almost always cheaper to get installed than it is to just buy the material. That is for batt insulation to. Once you get to celulose and spray its even les comparable
I just had the HD out for a quote (I was curious but intended to do myself). For 600 sq ft they wanted $1,300 dollar to blow over top of what I already had. My batts are installed incorrectly facing the wrong way and they just wanted to blow over top w/ blown fiberglass. Now seriously I can do that myself for a few hundred bucks for that amount of space. To gut the attic and do it right, maybe isn't the best for DIYer allot of work and allot of chances to make mistakes. But if you just want to add some insulation or roll some batts on top of what you have it can be accomplished with a somewhat handy person.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:41 AM   #44
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Whats the HD??

How are your batts installed?

I never said it was hard. Of course a DIY can roll out some batts or use the HOME Depot blowwer. I was talking about new construction.

Id get some more bids. I just paid less than that to have a 580 sq ft addition insulated.
R 38 High density in the floor
R 23 spider in the walls
R 49 blow in in the ceilings.


If HD means home depot of corse your getting jacked. They take a regular subs bid and then add there percentage on top. You can have the same guy come do the job and it will probably be at least 10% less. Make sure your material is the same as what your getting bids on.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:57 AM   #45
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Whats the HD??

How are your batts installed?

I never said it was hard. Of course a DIY can roll out some batts or use the HOME Depot blowwer. I was talking about new construction.

Id get some more bids. I just paid less than that to have a 580 sq ft addition insulated.
R 38 High density in the floor
R 23 spider in the walls
R 49 blow in in the ceilings.


If HD means home depot of corse your getting jacked. They take a regular subs bid and then add there percentage on top. You can have the same guy come do the job and it will probably be at least 10% less. Make sure your material is the same as what your getting bids on.
I hear you ubenhad4, and I thought you were talking old construction. Yes new construction is a whole different bowl of wax. Yes I meant the Home Depot, I don't hold them to high esteem for work quality or pricing I was just curious because like you said I've read some threads where guys got quotes for $500 - $700 dollar range for similar square footage.

I've got about 3" of blow in which either cellulose or fiberglass ( kinda yellowish looking material) not really sure between the joists. Then going perpendicular I've got paper faced batts with the paper facing up toward the sky giving me a total of about 7" or 8" max insulation. I am thinking of ripping the batts out all together and blow more on top or flip the batts and blow on top. However I do not want to create a moisture issue with the paper faced batts so I am hesitant on a game plan.

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