Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-06-2011, 08:20 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
Share |
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Hello, I need professional opinions on my plan of attack as listed below.

I live in a condo unit in between 2 units and 1 above me. The unit above has laminate floors, inconsiderate owners and a hyperactive dog. Them walking and the dog running is extremely annoying as it produces footfall noise and their subfloor squeaks/crunches when they walk . I would move but I cannot, long story. I want to soundproof my living room ceiling as best as I can (16'x22'). The current construction is subfloor-Ijoists-2 layers of 1/2" drywall.

The area I live in is very remote and I don't have access to clips and channels or green glue, just basic building supplies. Normal drywall is $40/sheet at the hardware store.

Here is my plan of attack.
1. Remove existing drywall, using a drywall saw to save what I can.
2. Screw 2x layer of drywall to the subfloor above OR to underside of the top "I" joist section-which would leave an inch b/w subfloor and my first layer of drywall
3. Running 2x4's at right angles to the joists, screwing into the bottom of the I joists.
4. Glueing some kind of padding to the topside of the 2x4s
5. Construct "u"'s out of 2x4 and hang them upside down from the padded 2x4s
6. Run 2x4s across the ceiling affixing them to the homemade upsidedown U's, stuff insulation into the voids betwen Ijoists
7. Hang drywall from the 2x4s hung in step 6.


What do I do with the 2 lighting fixtures in the ceiling?

I would spend upwards of $5,000.00 to fix this problem so money isn't an issue.


Thanks in advance for any advice. I tried to best replicate Ted White's method using what I have available to me.


Cwk36

cwk36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2011, 09:03 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,646
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


I have heard that spray foam works good for noise reduction. maybe hat channel, soundboard and then drywall.

DannyT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:43 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Why not look into ordering some channels or taking a drive to get to a hardware store that actually carrys the things you need to make your life easier.

Simple solution would be to spray foam would drastically reduce the noise level but its not considered actual sound proofing.
just.adam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 12:07 PM   #4
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Unfortunately I cannot drive to a place that has fancy sound proofing supplies, there are no roads in or out and you have to fly to get in or out. There is no spray foam contractor in town.
cwk36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 04:56 PM   #5
retired union carpenter
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 323
Send a message via Yahoo to coupe
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


first off! let me state I am no expert in any field nor claim to be. hell, I don't even have a high school diploma. what I am is a do it yourself er, who began learning to build in 1957 from my father who forced me to help he only went to third grade himself, but learn from his father. that being stated on the record, give me a blueprint and spec sheet on what you want? I can build it!

to start with, it's nearly impossible to completely soundproof any two rooms/buildings, if attached with non porous materials. sound will carry through wood, anything hard. including drywall. I can break a broom and use the handle to tell which lifter is tapping in your car, which bearing has spun on your crank shaft, even which piston needs new rings, all through a wooden stick.

I'd spent many years when working, traveling the country to Show Case Cinemas, splitting them in half making one into two. to soundproof anything? you must begin at the source of sound( the finished side of wall or floor.) I'll explain the process in the case of a movie theater as best I can.

on Monday morning, a crew of 17 of us would enter the theater at 6 am. one group began removing 3 rows of seats against the wall to make room for new wall. one group was removing the ceiling, another group would be measuring and cutting 30 foot 14 gauge metal studs and fastening down 14 gauge metal track for walls, all studs and track are 6 inch 14 gauge. another 6 inch wall was built 6 inches from first one, attached at floor and both walls attached to roof of building through the Styrofoam and roofing material with 1"x8"bolts holes drilled 1 1/2" then filled with foam insulation, on top track 5 12" washers were used every 4-6 feet with neoprene rubber between track and washers. this made a wall that is 18" outside stud to outside stud which was stuffed with fiberglass insulation. on outside of each new wall started with 1/2" sound deadening fiber board, then 5/8" drywall on that and repeated until there is 6 layers or fiber board sound barrier and 6 layers of 5/8" drywall. needed 8 inch screws for last layer making said wall approximately 28" thick. then finished with the corrugated metal panels with holes and fiber board backing formed into it on each side of walls. now you must remember these now nearly 30" walls are not fastened together with as much as a single screw! eliminating sound conduction.

this may sound strange to your situation? but you must stop the sound at it's source, the laminate flooring, or sub-flooring is squeaking we don't know which? obviously you can't go up tearing their floors up to fix whatever it is! therefore, you must somehow detach tour ceiling from their flooring by about 6" in order to not hear it maybe never completely! this involves lowering your own ceiling approximately 7 inches. you best check with your building's association before starting. your lights simply drop down to new ceiling, if you can't? get an electrician.

our theaters, we walked out by 6 PM on Friday evening and movies began about 8 the theater owner's paid us $500 each if we were done within 7 days? we never took over 5 days including one new ceiling and one new movie screen.

any drywall you cut to save wont be worth the time as pieces of big enough to use except small pieces. once ceiling is out you must start with sound barrier fiber board under floor, then another layer on top of your new ceiling, if you have room to attach it? duct tape it on if you must then add your new drywall, to be finished and done.

I can't promise sounds wont follow down studs to you new ceiling joists which you'll probably have to fasten them to that's how sounds travel, wherever things are attached together stuff all openings with fiberglass insulation, even if you must use the loose bagged kind and do it by hand? woah-itchy!

good luck to one DYer from another DI Yer with no higher education but with experience and imagination

coupe
coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 05:41 PM   #6
Soundproofing Guy
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 235
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Interesting dilemma. What sorts of materials do you have available? Specifically, any heavy sheets of material like plywood? What about compressible materials such as insulation?
Ted White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 05:48 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 166
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Coupe 's got some good tips there on what to do. I'll try to explain why it works. Ask yourself how sound is transmitted. Sound you hear is a series of air ripples vibrating back and forth, making your eardrum vibrate, changing the motion into sound.

Sound is a wave, and impact on one side of a solid object will transmit this sound to the other end of the object. The denser the object, the more the sound will transmit. As an experiment, bang a piece of fibreglass batt, a piece of wood and a steel bar. You will not hear the impact of a wood stick on the batt, louder with wood and very loud with the steel bar.

So you need to do two things, (1) stop the sound moving in air (the fibre glass batts do this as the fibres trap the air and stop wave propagation, the denser the better) and (2) stop impact noise transmitted through the solid structure. If you take the piece of wood above and cut it in half, and glue it back together with a piece of foam rubber in between, you will stop the sound transmitting through the wood at the rubber joint.

BASICALLY, YOU NEED A FALSE CEILING UNDERNEATH WITH NO AIR GAPS AND AS ISOLATED MECHANICALLY AS POSSIBLE FROM THE CEILING ABOVE.

If you are fixing to the ceiling above, use rubber separators as much as possible. It's more the impact noise transmission than anything else.

Hope this explains noise transmission. Cheers from Oz.
JoJo-Arch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 06:43 PM   #8
Soundproofing Guy
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 235
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


#1 Look to treat the vibration at it's source.

#2 Look to prevent the vibration from entering the original framing.

If we circumvent this we wind up chasing the vibration who-knows-where.

Ideally, you'd like to approximate this design:





I asked earlier about available compressible materials. Based on availability we can select the most appropriate route. I'm picturing that you have extremely limited raw materials.
Ted White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 08:52 PM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Coupe, Jo-Jo and, Ted White, thanks a lot for your responses.

Materials Available:
-drywall: 1/2" or 5/8"
-plywood
-2x4, 2x6, 2x8, etc..
-batt (fluffy) insulation, probably just basic stuff and not roxul
-various types of rubber padding
-caulking and adhesive
-basically anything you would find in a small town lumber/hardware store. No sound slips, resilient channel or green glue unfortunately

I was considering building a second ceiling by using a beam of some sort running the length of the room, dividing it in half, hopefully less than 8' span on each side of the beam. I would tie the beam either into existing framing and double or tripple up 2x4's underneath the beam for support... I would run the 2x4's from the center beam and tie them into to the perimeter, the perimiter would be made up of 2x4's on top of the drywall screwed into studs. The perimeter, center beam, and joists running between the beam and perimeter would be about 2 inches below my existing ceiling. The idea would be that I would have drwall screwed into a 2x4 frame that is only connected at the perimeter walls and NOT the ceiling at any point.... My concern with this was on the soundproofingcompany website, it mentions "Tripple leafs" are bad and sometimes amplify sounds.. After reading up on soundproofing, I dont know what to believe -> false/second ceiling isolated from framing above OR channel and clip system.


If I go with the second/false ceiling, should I rip down the existing drywall, OR just get the light fixtures down far enough to hang them from my second ceiling and patch up the holes where the light fixtures were (are currently).. On thesoundproofing company, it mentions that a the idea is to create a big airgap and stuff some of the gap with insulation, which makes me think I might get better results if I rip down by current ceiling..


Thanks again in advance guys, your help and time means so much to me.

cwk36

Last edited by cwk36; 12-07-2011 at 08:57 PM.
cwk36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 06:45 AM   #10
Soundproofing Guy
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 235
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


So you can't have materials shipped to you? No neighborhood store stocks soundproofing materials. It gets shipped.

The triple leaf threat is removed and performance increased if the original drywall is removed as you first planned. Otherwise you're going to limit improvement.

Also, you would ideally remove this drywall and deal with the floor above first. Limit that floor's ability to conduct a vibration. Then re-establish a new ceiling below.

If available, you could use clips and channels to decouple this new ceiling or use the separate joist system you described to decouple. Both efforts decouple.

The first step is to see if you can receive mail
Ted White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 166
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


What Ted has recommended is of course the best way to go. Seeing you mention what materials are available, however, here is what I would suggest: This is for joists spaced 1'6'' apart, adjust spacings below to suit.
  1. Leave the existing ceiling alone. This can only help the present situation and save you an enourmous amount of work. Having done this myself, I know what's involved. Remove just the existing cornice if there is one.
  2. Mark out the centre lines of existing joists on the underside of the existing ceiling and transfer marks to walls for establishing location of joists later.
  3. Get hold of about 10-12 cheapest carpet tiles per 12'x15' room and cut tiles into 1'' strips. Use a carton box knife.
  4. Staple carpet strips pile down along joist lines at 1'0'' centers. (get hold of an electric stapler for this task as there will be many staples to do). Repeat for a second layer of carpet strips but reverse the strips so it's pile to pile contact. Use long staples or use 1'' clout nails. Slightly recess nails below normal surface of rubber.
  5. Cut 1'6''x 3'0'' (or as long as you can manage) sections of the best and densist fibre glass batts you can find. (no more than 2'' thick). These will be compressed to less than 1'' when the plywood is screwed on.
  6. Fit the batts between the strips and staple edges at joists. if the batts overhang over the strips, this is ok. You should now have the whole ceiling looking like a shaggy pile upside down carpet.
  7. Get help, get enough 5/8'' plywood sheets to cover whole of ceiling, and while two strong guys hold each sheet, screw fix plywood to joists at 2'0'' centres. Try and keep sheets slightly apart (1/8'') will do.
  8. Buy more carpet tiles to cover all of plywood and glue or staple carpet tiles (pile up this time) to cover all plywood.
  9. Get enough 5/8" plasterboard (drywall) sheets and glue and screw (with your helpers) to carpet/plywood at 2'0'' centres along joist lines.
  10. Tape, scrim and sand (when dry) all joints to plaster sheets.
  11. Using two layers of thick double sided tape, lay strip along perimeter of ceiling where new cornice will make contact (usually 1-2'' away from corner)
  12. Cut cornice to size & shape, screw or nail cornice to wall only. The tape will take care of the ceiling connection. If there are any gaps, use a flexible gap sealant.
  13. Clean up, prepare walls and ceiling and repaint.
You have achieved two things, increased density and removed air gaps and mechanically isolated the plywood/plaster sandwich from the old ceiling as much as possible. Maybe not 100% perfect, but close to it.

Hope this will fix your noise problem.

Cheers, from Joe in Oz
JoJo-Arch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 05:47 PM   #12
retired union carpenter
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 323
Send a message via Yahoo to coupe
Default

Soundproofing - Homemade sound clip system


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post
#1 Look to treat the vibration at it's source.

#2 Look to prevent the vibration from entering the original framing.

If we circumvent this we wind up chasing the vibration who-knows-where.

Ideally, you'd like to approximate this design:





I asked earlier about available compressible materials. Based on availability we can select the most appropriate route. I'm picturing that you have extremely limited raw materials.
thank you Ted, your link shows perfectly what I was trying to explain in words. I literally spent 27 years of my life traveling the country from Maine to California, splitting the theaters have done hundreds of them. thank you for the link,
good luck
coupe

coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
surround sound system echo cannouu Electrical 5 02-23-2011 09:13 PM
Office Sound System Lenarchitect General DIY Discussions 2 02-25-2008 04:48 PM
Kitchen Sound System Ron6519 Home Theater 7 01-04-2008 01:41 PM
Soundproof Windows BlueJello General DIY Discussions 3 11-30-2007 05:34 PM
What makes a quiet window? Badfish740 Building & Construction 8 09-30-2007 10:22 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.