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Something doesn't seem right here. Structural wall removed with no support.

7K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  frenchelectrican 
#1 ·
Opened up some drywall and found something that really concerns me.

These monkeys that used to live here removed this wall.

I'm quite concerned as it looks like it's a load bearing wall as you can see the joists overlap above the wall. There is really nothing holding up those joists besides two 2x4's laying flat.

Do I need to be concerned?

Plz help.
 

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#4 ·
What a nightmare. I just found another wall that has been removed. Same issue.

There is a 2nd floor above. Opening is 5'.

The other opening is almost 8' only supported by end nailing into one 2x8 joist!

Omg how is this house still standing?

No fat chicks allowed until this is remedied. :0
 

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#5 ·
To bad they hacked it, it needs a header. I wonder if you run a straight edge across like a 6' level, if would find any bowing in the center?
Reframe it would be pretty straight forward, build a couple temp 2x4 walls a foot or so back, then can remove the mess that is there and redo it.

Not sure on the sizing of the beam, would think if those are 2x8 floor joist. Could run one king and one jack on each end. (I prefer 2 jack)
Then 2, 2x8 with 7/16" osb in between to create a 4x8 header.
Would be 10 times better then what you have.

Could cut back the floor joist and slide the header up and make it flush with the ceiling, hang the joist off the header with hangers.

Takes care of the framing, all the electrical is going to be a little more tricky.
 
#6 ·
Thx so much Funf.

I was searching around to see if I could do what you mentioned about cutting back the joists and hanging them off the header. I really like that idea. More work but much cleaner result.

I'm going to make the headers from (2) 2x8's and (2) 2x4 jack studs on each end.

Thx again.

If u know where I can find more info about how to do this right. Plz fwd.
 
#7 ·
Do a search on this forum for headers or similar words. This topic (installation of headers) has been discussed many times on this forum over the past few years, lots of suggestions on temporary support, design standards for headers, how to obtain a permit, proper support, flush headers, use of joist hangers etc. You may want to check in with your local building inspector regarding the required size for the header, there are different building codes in different areas, and the local inspector always has the last word.
 
#8 ·
I like to run a king stud all the way up the side of the header to the top.
Will be more nailing surface, or screwing, help keep the ends of header from twisting later.
Then you put 1 jack under the header, making a 4x4 post attaching the jack to the king.
Will leave the header siting on 1 1/2" jack stud and is fine.
If you have room, for door opening and such, a second jack will leave the header sitting on 3" of jack on each side.

With your 5' and 8' opening, 1 1/2" is fine, for larger headers and wider 16' openings, code here would require 2 jacks ... will beef it up, but if you do not have space to lose 3" of opening, would not lose sleep with your size openings.

with a king and jack will be fine and create a 4x4 post for it to sit on.
2 jacks and a king you create a 4x6 post for it to sit on, again will help reduce twisting as it dries and prevent drywall cracks later. But is over kill in your situation ... extra jack on both openings would cost about $10.
 
#9 ·
Great!

Turns out I'm just gonna put the header under the joists. It's not gonna help to make it all flush since we want to define the room and the headers will actually help.

The post that will hold the headers are made of (4) 2x4's for the 8' opening and (2) 2x4's for the 5' opening. On the other ends I'll have (2) jack studs and one more at the ends.

Hopefully get this all up tomorrow and post some pics.
 
#13 ·
That something I have see it from time to time on either side of pond and some peoples NEVER understand what load bearing means at all.

So before you start run new 2X8 headers you will have to deal the floor part where you have in basement or crawl space and see how well it is builted if not then you will have to make a block or a post to take up the load but pay attetion to basement floor or crawlspace to make sure you have good footing below.

As other member mention use 6 foot level or use the laser light to see how much it bend down and I am not suprised if that did kick down at least 1/4 inch. some case more.

Now for electrical item when you have the ceiling / walls open up it is good time to take a close look see if those fomer dolts ran a hidden junctionbox if so that is a good time to address it now before you close up the wall.

If you have electrical related question just posted over electrical section one of us will answer your question on that.

Merci,
Marc
 
#15 ·
#16 ·
If in doubt, make it stout.

(2) 2x8's should be fine.

Under the main floor post is a large steel beam. The column for that beam is within a few feet of the point load.

Seeing that the house had been unsupported like this for a few years shows there is a good safety factor. Built in 1975. I would not be confident a mass produced home today could do this.
 
#17 ·
Sorry, double 2x8 will only span 5'9" with a 10' joist breaking on it.

14' joist = 5' span. 18' joist = 4'5" header. These are minimum from that link I gave.

8' span = double 2x12's with only 10' joist bearing. Keep up on your H.O.Insurance...

Gary
 
#19 ·
Ceiling Property Beam Room Wall


Tree Wood Woody plant Plant Room


Ceiling Beam Room Wood Floor


Header is in place.

I jacked it in place and hammered 2x8 blocks that I tapered underneath the point loads to transfer the weight on to the steal beam in the basement.

The joists were sagging almost an inch in some locations. It was scary hearing all the creaking when I was jacking it up.

Though it all looks fine now. Thanks for all the advice. :thumbup:

Still no fat chicks upstairs though. :no:
 
#23 ·
Wiskey Tango Fox ?????

That is a first time I ever heard that for subfloor thickness I never ran into any thing less than 3/4 inch thick and I belive the IBC do call minuim of 3/4 inch or thicker.

Even I used to work on new home construction and I always see that and used the T&G which it is most common one but for older home it is not too uncommon to see a inch thick "plank"board most case useally 1 1/4 inch thick is pretty common.

Merci,
Marc
 
#25 ·
I can see why you have alot of patince with that But I am glad you are doing the right thing to fix up whoever left the funny Why The Faces mess behind.

I will advise ya check the electrical system very carefull as well once you do see hidden box that will raise automatique red flag there so go over carefull if you have your freinds have some type of borescope you can just drill a very small hole and take a look inside the wall or ceiling cavity to see how it set up.

( sometime you can rent them as well )

Merci,
Marc
 
#26 ·
Quote from the first Code book I bought new; "Dwelling construction under the Uniform Building Code, 1976 Edition" Table No.25-R-1-Allowable spans for plywood subfloor continuous over two or more spans and face grain perpendicular to supports;

Panel ID index= 32/16

plywood thickness= 1/2", 5/8"

Max. span; edges blocked= 32"
edges unblocked= 28"

total load = 55#per sq.ft. live load= 50#

floor max. span= 16"*
*= may be 24" if 25/32" wood strip flooring is installed at right angles to joists.

Many apartment floors were laid with 5/8" plywood (no blocking or T&G) and topped with 1-1/2" of "light-weight" concrete over 15# builders paper. Last summer I demoed a basement bedroom apt. floor with extreme difficulty (circa 1970's). The joists were over-spanned to today's codes and compressed 3/8" at bearing walls due to 3 stories high. Some mid-span joist sag but not nearly as you might expect. Back when trees were trees (weight-maxed trucks with 3 logs on them) and framers were carpenters...

Check out today's 24/16 and 32/16 floor spans; third chart down: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2009/icod_ibc_2009_23_par100.htm

Gary
 
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#27 ·
Lol. Yes, I am being very dilegent to find all the Wtf's. Escpecially the wiring. Others include... (So sorry for the rant. But this is actually the first time counting all the "wtf's".)

- A basement wall that was framed with the studs horizontal.
- A 15A electrical outlet (14/2) for the microwave was junctioned off a hot wire from a 240V-40A stove outlet. .
- That same 240V box was mounted outside the wall behind the range with nomex wires and run through the cabinets where metal pots and pans were. (fraying in multiple locations too)
- In the electrical panel, there were 4 grounds that were not connected. They were just leaning on the metal box. One of which was the electrical water heater! Another breaker wasn't tight and the hot wire just fell out when I touched it.
- Underneath every window was mold. Needed to cut out the drywall to find that the vapour barriers were ripped/pierced or completely missing.
- Aluminum wires connected to copper devices. Most used merettes not meant for aluminum.
- Hot and cold water swapped in the shower, (had to open the wall to fix). Also swapped in the bath sink, and kitchen sink.
- No P-trap in basement sink or laundry.
- Random holes in subfloors (maybe for ducting) covered with carpet.
- Most switches upside down.
- Mystery switches.
- Evidence of a big water leak. Mold.
- Basement no vapour barrier. Mold.
- Kitchen outlet had no ground wire, instead they ran a wire to the copper plumbing pipe. No gfi.
- Enormous amounts of mouse pooh in basement and kitchen bulkheads.
- Finally, missing 2 structural walls that were covered with thick baseboards.

Yes, I had a home inspector and a certified electrician check the home before our purchase.
Unfortunately, most of these things are not apparent with a visual check.

Again, sorry for the rant. All the above has been fixed by myself. So if anyone needs advice.

We're way over budget. Crossing all my fingers that I don't have more to add to the list though I'm sure there'll be more. If I were not so honest, there'd conveniently be a fire when we're not home.
 
#29 ·
Lol. Yes, I am being very dilegent to find all the Wtf's. Escpecially the wiring. Others include... (So sorry for the rant. But this is actually the first time counting all the "wtf's".)

- A basement wall that was framed with the studs horizontal.
Hortzonal ? that is very odd for basement set up.

- A 15A electrical outlet (14/2) for the microwave was junctioned off a hot wire from a 240V-40A stove outlet. . Did someone change the breaker to 15 amp or left it on 40 amp ? if they left it on 40 amp that is a major no-no on this one. The microwave circuit should be it own circuit if you can able fish it that fine I know you mention over the budget but try to sqezze couple more dollars and run this one so you can leave the electrique stove circuit alone in case you want to reverted back to electrique stove.
- That same 240V box was mounted outside the wall behind the range with nomex wires and run through the cabinets where metal pots and pans were. (fraying in multiple locations too)I think it is the time to get rid that "timebomb" and run a new one.
- In the electrical panel, there were 4 grounds that were not connected. They were just leaning on the metal box. One of which was the electrical water heater! Another breaker wasn't tight and the hot wire just fell out when I touched it. ouch I am glad you found them now instead find out later why some circuits not work.
- Underneath every window was mold. Needed to cut out the drywall to find that the vapour barriers were ripped/pierced or completely missing.
Sound like former owner try to save alot bucks but it don't do wonders at all espcally with molds you have to stop the mold spreading around for your family sake.
- Aluminum wires connected to copper devices. Most used merettes not meant for aluminum. Few merettes are rated to work with copper/ aluminum conductors but becarefull with switch or receptale some are not marked to use with alum conductors.
- Hot and cold water swapped in the shower, (had to open the wall to fix). Also swapped in the bath sink, and kitchen sink.
- No P-trap in basement sink or laundry.
- Random holes in subfloors (maybe for ducting) covered with carpet.
- Most switches upside down.
- Mystery switches. Possiblty switched receptales or outside receptale or luminaires
- Evidence of a big water leak. Mold.
- Basement no vapour barrier. Mold.
- Kitchen outlet had no ground wire, instead they ran a wire to the copper plumbing pipe. No gfi.That is major no-no I know some case it used to be allowed in older code edition but not any more there is a main reason why they don't do that any more due many plumming pipes are being replaced with plastique and you loose the bonding so that is the main safety reason there.
- Enormous amounts of mouse pooh in basement and kitchen bulkheads.
- Finally, missing 2 structural walls that were covered with thick baseboards.

Yes, I had a home inspector and a certified electrician check the home before our purchase.
Unfortunately, most of these things are not apparent with a visual check.

Again, sorry for the rant. All the above has been fixed by myself. So if anyone needs advice.

We're way over budget. Crossing all my fingers that I don't have more to add to the list though I'm sure there'll be more. If I were not so honest, there'd conveniently be a fire when we're not home.

I know sometime with inspectors they don't catch every thing but once you open up the wall you can actually see what is going on with the mess.

I am glad you are doing the right thing is fixed up right and please and I mean please take a photo and doucment in your records so you know what it been done right.

Merci,
Marc
 
#28 ·
the headers look great! might want to add horizontal continous blocking around the vertical support you added under the point load on top of the steel beam to keep the support from kicking out over time. just add the blocking back to the joists on either side of the support...
 
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