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Old 03-23-2012, 06:37 AM   #16
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from what i have been able to gather the gable end derives no benefit from the roof diaphragm,so as the pro's have said racking resistance is required there

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Old 03-23-2012, 04:08 PM   #17
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Aw righty. Here's where I am right now.

I was driving around last night and checked out houses in the neighborhood (you may want to bring the kids in the house when I'm rubbernecking around town) I decided that there is WAY too much lap sidings around. Talked to the wife and she agreed that too many horizontal lines will be unattractive. So I'm thinking of using stucco Hardipanel on the gable ends to replace the current stucco and lap siding on the dormers to replace the asbestos shingles.

Since I don't need vapor barrier, I can leave the original mineral wool in the wall. There are some areas I need to check to be sure there is insulation present, but otherwise it's a matter of replacing some bad sheathing, which is 3/4" planks grooved to hold the stucco. Stucco has to come off. Most of it couldn't be kept on if I tried, but I'm sure enough of it will stick to make this a PITB.

I'll add:
2" extruded foamboard
Weather barrier (I really think it needs to be outside the foam)
3/4" furring to create a rainscreen
Hardipanel

This will produce a 3" bumpout. The 8" plank between the brick and stucco will become an angled transition which is how I convinced myself that it wouldn't look too skanky. Haven't decided if the angle will be covered with some of the Hardipanel or PVC. We're trying to swear off external wood.

The furring strips will be mounted on the sheathing because there's no guarantee the studs are any particular spacing at all. I've always said this house was built without squares, levels or rulers and as a result board spacing tends to be somewhat random.

Now, specifically for the south gable end, I want to open the flow through the rainscreen layer. By opening the bottom (where the water comes out) and opening the top up under the roof overhang, it should produce convective air flow when the summer sun beats down on that wall that will keep some of the heat off the foamboard. That would be more effective if there was a reflective layer over the foamboard to reduce radiative heat transfer from the hot panel. Tyvek isn't reflective. I'm open to suggestions. The gaps will need some kind of screen to keep from having bug tenants.

The Hardipanel will be installed zero gap. Hardie recommends that for the vertical seams, but I'm going to make the horizontal seam zero gap as well. Hardie doesn't recommend that, but then they don't have the rainscreen behind the panels either. I'm may try beveling the mating edges so the gap slopes down. The goal is to not have visible seams from the street, which is why I don't want to flash the horizontal seam.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:48 PM   #18
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I am at the JCL Live conference today. And talked to JamesHardi directly about all of this. Hardi Plank can be installed over the 2"foam but on 3/4" battens as I told you to do. The Tyvek is a weather barrier which also acts as a rainscreen. this means two things....1) It is designed to shed wind blow water (rainscreen) and to allow moisture to move through it on one direction. So moisture inside the home can get out. It goes on the sheathing. Four different classes today said the same thing. It is not even a possibility for it to work correctly in any other position. When you make a penetration into the exterior wall (window or light) the Tyvek gets sliced at a 45 degree angle away from this opening and tacked temporarily out of the way. Then add flashing at least 4" up the wall and past any extruding object. Apply Grace tape or the like over this flashing. Then the Tyvek goes over this and the cut seams are taped with Tyvek tape. Hardie also agreed that the material and paint will last much longer applied as I directed since the drainage plane (space the battens provide) keeps the back dry and paint will last much much much longer. So now you know how to do it right. It is up to you if you insist on doing it wrong.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:52 PM   #19
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both top and bottom of the battens are open.. yes... BUT... remember to apply a bog screen to both areas of the little critters will block you air flow in no time. and every type of drain plane material made (about 4 here at the show) include this feature.

also be sure to paint all cuts in the hardie material or it will shrink enough to show significant gaps. And a small piece of flashing is to be placed at every seam. All breaks to the vertical plan need to be flashed. This flashing can be over the tyvek. And flashing for items penetrating the wall must go under the tyvek.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:49 PM   #20
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Tyvek against the sheathing, foam, battens, panel. Check

Could/should the foam be taped to prevent air infiltration or no?

This is a retrofit. The windows are already in place and the interior is not being touched so flashing and sealing will be as best can be done. Start at the bottom and work up. Water runs downhill and downhill has to lead out past the 3" additional thickness. What can go wrong?

I've had yellowjackets move in before. It led to a glorious battle in which I was ultimately victorious, but not until they got some licks in. Bug screen. Check.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:09 PM   #21
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tape the seams and foam the corners and gaps. This is working as your air sealing also. You will be so comfy. But your heating fuel supplier will miss you. I just got oil delivered for the first time in 2 years. He looked at me and said.. damn I thought I lost you guys as a customer. My oil went from $500 a month to $150 a year
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:46 PM   #22
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the tyvek is a weather barrier that also works as a rainscreen?

look the wrb ties into the window flashing that is the drainage plane,now you say cover your drainage plane with a fairly low perm foam,doesn't take a scientist to know there is something inherently wrong with that

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Old 03-24-2012, 09:58 PM   #23
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if you want to set your windows to the sheathing and then foam,install a flashing skirt and put your drainage on top where it belongs

best would be to furr the units out the foam thickness then your drainage plane is in the right place
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:18 AM   #24
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Quote:
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the tyvek is a weather barrier that also works as a rainscreen?

look the wrb ties into the window flashing that is the drainage plane,now you say cover your drainage plane with a fairly low perm foam,doesn't take a scientist to know there is something inherently wrong with that

yes it acts as a rainscreen. But for paint to last longer you should also add a drain plane. Tyvek even makes one now. But when adding 2" foam you need to use a batten system so you have something to fasten the siding too if using wood or hardie planks. (James Hardie agreed 100% with me on this at the show yesterday.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:42 AM   #25
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Bob i agree with that too,but imo [how's that]the wrb should be directly under the siding,tied into the window flashing but always draining to the outside surface,not directed under inches of foam
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:27 AM   #26
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This is a matter of taste for now. The process of exterior foam is somewhat new. out of about 20 pros that I discussed this with placed it on the sheathing. Mavin had it on the foam. It will work either way. With polyiso foam if properly applied it will provide a WBR and a rainscreen. But tyvek or foam board does not provide a drain plane. This is also important for durability of the exterior cladding and paint. The big difference with this wall assembly is that it now needs to dry to the interior. Normally we build to allow drying to the exterior. When using 2" foam as you should be doing, how are you going to fasten the tyvek?
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:14 AM   #27
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Now let's add another material. I've got the siding furred off from the insulation providing an airspace that provides drainage. Especially on the south side where there is lots of sun exposure, having a reflective layer over the foam to reduce radiative heat transfer would seem appropriate. An example of a reflective house wrap is here. I would assume that a reflective material like this would be used in place of and not with a conventional house wrap.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Mariani View Post
This is a matter of taste for now. The process of exterior foam is somewhat new. out of about 20 pros that I discussed this with placed it on the sheathing. Mavin had it on the foam. It will work either way. With polyiso foam if properly applied it will provide a WBR and a rainscreen. But tyvek or foam board does not provide a drain plane. This is also important for durability of the exterior cladding and paint. The big difference with this wall assembly is that it now needs to dry to the interior. Normally we build to allow drying to the exterior. When using 2" foam as you should be doing, how are you going to fasten the tyvek?

same capped fasteners we use to attach the foam i'd imagine

i just think we need to be careful we don't essentially install an eifs system under the cladding

you may want to consider using a drainable matrix under thick foam installations like eifs systems have,then the wrb to the sheathing makes more sense
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:39 PM   #29
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how ever you want to do it. I use 2' foam so not sure where you find 3" cap nails. Drain plane goes directly behind siding. No other place for it. This will drain water penetrating siding (they all leak) as well as any moisture diffusing from the inside.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:03 PM   #30
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oh so thats how it's gonna be eh...

your drain plane as you call it actually starts at the bottom window flange


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