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-   -   shed with block walls - rehab (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/shed-block-walls-rehab-45573/)

kirkpala 05-30-2009 11:07 AM

shed with block walls - rehab
 
2 Attachment(s)
First off, thanks to all who have contributed to this site. It is amazing how much I've learned here without even asking a question.

I just found out the old dilapidated shed I thought was my neighbor's is actually mine. (long story) Now I want to make it usable instead of hiding it behind the bushes. It is 12' x 16' with 4 in block walls on a slab.

It currently has a shed roof but it only drops one course of blocks (8 in) over the 12 feet from front to back. The 2x4 rafters have collapsed so I need to tear off the whole roof and start from scratch. I'm thinking of going back with a hip roof. I know I'm going to need to somehow level the tops of the walls. I'd prefer to just remove one course of blocks from the front and the sides (which have been cut at an angle). Problem is the windows on each side have concrete lintels that extends about 2 1/4 in above that level. (see pics) I'm wondering if I can just put a 2X4 pressure treated plate, then install a plywood spacer to the top of the lintel then put another 2x4 over top of all that. Maybe attach to wall with J-bolts going through all of it?

Another option would be to go up to the level of the front, but I would need to lay block around the three sides and cut blocks to appropriate size above windows. Since I've never done any masonry, I'd rather avoid that.
Any opinions or other ideas?

Second part of the project is that I want to enlarge the door so I can drive a riding mower through it - probably about 5 ft wide or so. From what I understand, typically, a lintel would be installed to span the opening and then a 2x frame would be installed inside the opening. I think I could attach the sides with a ramset, but I'm wondering about the top. Seems like a 2X4 would sag over time. If I have a steel lintel, do I somehow attach to it? Maybe double 2X4? or use a 4X4? I also think I could use U shaped block and rebar to make a lintel but I'm not sure if that comes in 4 in? A friend of mine that has construction experience recommended just using a double 2X6 header - Like you would do on a wood frame wall. That probably would be easier, but I'm not sure how I would trim the outside to make the outside look right. Again, any ideas?

I haven't started anything yet, just want to have a plan in mind before I go to get the permit. Thanks for any help or suggestions!

Willie T 05-30-2009 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirkpala (Post 280484)
First off, thanks to all who have contributed to this site. It is amazing how much I've learned here without even asking a question.

I just found out the old dilapidated shed I thought was my neighbor's is actually mine. (long story) Now I want to make it usable instead of hiding it behind the bushes. It is 12' x 16' with 4 in block walls on a slab.

It currently has a shed roof but it only drops one course of blocks (8 in) over the 12 feet from front to back. The 2x4 rafters have collapsed so I need to tear off the whole roof and start from scratch. Yep, that sounds like the way to go. I'm thinking of going back with a hip roof. I know I'm going to need to somehow level the tops of the walls. I'd prefer to just remove one course of blocks from the front and the sides (which have been cut at an angle). Problem is the windows on each side have concrete lintels that extends about 2 1/4 in above that level. (see pics) I'm wondering if I can just put a 2X4 pressure treated plate, then install a plywood spacer to the top of the lintel then put another 2x4 over top of all that. Maybe attach to wall with J-bolts going through all of it?

Another option would be to go up to the level of the front, but I would need to lay block around the three sides and cut blocks to appropriate size above windows. Since I've never done any masonry, I'd rather avoid that.
Any opinions or other ideas?

You probably can continue the wall upward (in wood) anywhere you have to... on a low course, on a high course, or on a combination of high and low.

Second part of the project is that I want to enlarge the door so I can drive a riding mower through it - probably about 5 ft wide or so. From what I understand, typically, a lintel would be installed to span the opening and then a 2x frame would be installed inside the opening. I think I could attach the sides with a ramset, but I'm wondering about the top. Seems like a 2X4 would sag over time. If I have a steel lintel, do I somehow attach to it? Maybe double 2X4? or use a 4X4? Anything wrong with using doubled 2x10's or 2x12's? I also think I could use U shaped block and rebar to make a lintel but I'm not sure if that comes in 4 in? A friend of mine that has construction experience recommended just using a double 2X6 header - Like you would do on a wood frame wall. He seems to be on the easier track for you. That probably would be easier, but I'm not sure how I would trim the outside to make the outside look right. Again, any ideas? What do you need to match? Stucco can be made to resemble block.

I haven't started anything yet, just want to have a plan in mind before I go to get the permit. Thanks for any help or suggestions!

Suggestions in the "quoted" part above.

kirkpala 05-30-2009 12:17 PM

Thanks WillieT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T (Post 280495)
You probably can continue the wall upward (in wood) anywhere you have to... on a low course, on a high course, or on a combination of high and low.

Hmmm... Essentially make very short, wood stud walls? Sounds like a good idea.:thumbsup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T (Post 280495)
What do you need to match? Stucco can be made to resemble block.

Just thinking a larger header would look odd. I guess it really isn't much different from how the lintels look now...Hadn't even thought of stucco. I can work out something with it's appearance if that would be structurally ok.

kirkpala 06-29-2009 10:09 PM

shed rehab - error?
 
3 Attachment(s)
I bit the bullet, got permitted, removed the old roof, widened the doorway and have started to build back up, but I think I've made a couple of rookie errors in the process. (oh well, how else do you learn?).

I planned on putting a double top plate all the way around, so above the door header, I framed the bottom of the top plate to align with the top of the block wall. The red and green lines show how I planned to do it.
Attachment 11623
But now I realize that when I grouted in the anchor bolts, I only left 2" exposed. It seems like all I would need above the block sections would be a nailing surface for the rafters so maybe a single plate would suffice? Should I cut the cripple studs down a bit and redo above the header - something like this?
Attachment 11624
I'm a little concerned about the strength of that corner since that was the one that I had to patch so maybe I should just drill out some spaces and go over the washers/nuts? Does it matter.

Second issue:
To widen the door, I removed to block back to one of the joints, but they weren't aligned really well. I used Tapcons to attach to the wall, but I'm not sure that it is really well anchored near the bottom. The gap is about an inch at the widest section. I know I need to add the trimmer studs and I'm planning on adding some 1x trim on both sides of the wall so it should add some stiffness to the whole thing (and make it look better) but do I still need to fill the void? Should I use mortar, grout, or does it matter?
Attachment 11617


And while I'm at it, I'm going to need to repair around the steel windows. Which do I use for that?

Thanks for any assistance!

kirkpala 07-22-2009 11:52 PM

Rafter/top plate connection
 
2 Attachment(s)
I'm kind of slow but making progress.

I'm still kind of confused about the rafter/top plate details. Some of what I've read says to install blocking. Some of it seems to imply that it is not necessary. :confused1: It seems like it would be easier to use rafter ties since I need to allow room for ventilation but I'm not sure if they are meant to be used instead of the blocking, or in addition to it. Also, I'm not sure which type of tie to use, here are the two types that I'm wondering about. Can I just use these instead of blocking? How is the best way to attach the rafter to the top plate? (I don't live in a high-wind area.)

iMisspell 07-23-2009 12:48 AM

The following picture looks like you have the "king studs" (which go from the floor to your top plate) for your doors header, but is missing the "jack studs" (which would go from the floor to the bottom of the header (essentially holding the header up)). If so, you might (really should) want to add them.

http://www.diychatroom.com/attachmen...b-cropped1.jpg


Can not give you any answer about your double top plate, but can tell you this...
While i frammed the main floor of my addition i used a double top plate. When i nailed the top part i over lapped/staggered the joints about 4-5 foot (and toe nailed them along with face nailing). Note; this is with wooden walls... after i added the the top (and final) plate it made all the walls so much more solid, again this is with a wooden wall. Maybe for concrete or cinder-block walls a double plate is not needed but may benifit you in other ways.

Myself... double or single top plate, i would chop the cripples so that the plate running over the door is a single piece covering that span, but thats just me and im no framer or builder, just a home owner :)


Good luck.

_

kirkpala 07-23-2009 07:31 AM

Thanks IMisspell. You are right about the jack studs at the doorway. They are missing from the picture but are going to be added.

I ended up leaving the doorway like it was and then planning for two top plates across the entire front. Decided that is the only way that allows me to overlap the plates at the corners. I figured that it wouldn't hurt anything even if it wasn't necessary.

Any ideas about the blocking/ties question?

Scuba_Dave 07-23-2009 08:10 AM

My shed addition was 10' wide & I did not use blocking
I re-used 2x10's as rafters that came off the main house (new dormer)
A 2x top plate is required on a wall when wall studs above (like a gable wall) do not line up with wall studs below.
Overlapping at the corners w/2 top plates gives better corner strength
Since I was adding onto my shed I matched the 2x top plates on existing shed

I use the simpson tie in the 1st picture (left side)
I use them on very rafter, makes it easier to put the rafter in by myself

Blocking helps prevent larger rafters from twisting & makes the wall/area "tighter" - very secure

What do you need to repair around the windows?
Cement loose?

kirkpala 07-23-2009 11:21 PM

Thanks Scuba. You are confirming some of the things I've been thinking. Good to know if I'm on the right track.

About the window. Some of the mortar is missing - mainly up the sides on the exterior and on the bottom interior. Enough that the frame is loose in the sash block. I wasn't sure if I should use mortar or grout to fill that space or does it matter?


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