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Old 10-17-2011, 10:59 PM   #16
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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For me, I would pull out the book I have downstairs that is dated, but it would help to fix the situation, due to it has some really descriptive info in Balloon framing. As for the OP, it could be done, but there is not enough info or visual as to what they are really wanting to do with the upper floors.
Amen to that brother. I don't know if he is looking just for storage or if he wants to put a tiled floor for a bath up there or in just part of it.

Would he be O.K. with the first floor ceiling be lower? Who knows?
Would he want to do the work of putting up a temp. wall to hold up the floor joists while the situation is being corrected or have his contractor do it?


It all has to be taken into consideration, but like you said, not enough information.

Andy.

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Old 10-18-2011, 12:46 AM   #17
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


how about sister in a 2x12 on every other joist? and lower the main floor ceiling a few inches?
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Old 10-18-2011, 12:51 PM   #18
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


The second floor is composed of bedrooms and above that is an attic. The house has stood for close to 100 years with the undersized joists so I am not entirely convinced that the situation is dangerous, although as long as the joists are exposed I figured I would go ahead and remedy the situation for the next 100 years. The contractor said that sistering every other joist with a 2 X 6 will take a lot of the bounce out of the second floor and add enough structural material to make it all safe.
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:05 PM   #19
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


I think that is "safe" as it stands now, the question remains, what is it that yu would like to achieve?

Stiffer upper floor?

How much time/work and or money are you will to spend?

Is a lower ceiling a good option?

So you want to spend the money for a licensed engineer?

Sistering 2 x 6s or 3/4" ply. might work to stiffen the floor, probably it wouldn't hurt anything.

Andy.

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Old 10-18-2011, 01:31 PM   #20
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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The second floor is composed of bedrooms and above that is an attic. The house has stood for close to 100 years with the undersized joists so I am not entirely convinced that the situation is dangerous, although as long as the joists are exposed I figured I would go ahead and remedy the situation for the next 100 years. The contractor said that sistering every other joist with a 2 X 6 will take a lot of the bounce out of the second floor and add enough structural material to make it all safe.
Going from "horribly undersized" to "I am not entirely convinced that the situation is dangerous" happened pretty quick once you realized it would be a little hassle

Adding a 2x6 to every other joist would make it 50% stronger, but that is a far cry from what is generally considered acceptable for living accommodation.
Now that you've gutted it this far, I think you are opening yourself to liability if you don't meet modern standards and codes. I certainly would not claim it to be a living area if it is only up to light attic storage standards.

My house has also stood for close to 100 years, that does not make it safe. There are definite danger areas I am upgrading. For example, a small porch had 2x4 floor joists. that part was probably safe for the small span, but were they notched them down to less than 1x2s on one end and rotten on the other end making it unsafe. You said yourself there was signs that some were ready to give way soon. Does that really sound safe to you?


Lets not forget that people are much heavier and have more stuff than they did back in the day too. There are reasons codes keep getting more strict.

You have several option available to you. The safest are either raise you floor or lower your ceiling by increasing the joist height. Putting 3/4" sheeting top and bottom might do it for you if you add in more joists (toss that steel band thing in there too if you want). Maybe you could even put in an I beam and cut the effective span in half.
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:09 PM   #21
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


You have 3 options I see.


1.add in 2x10s in the center of each bay
2. add in 2 or (even 3) 2x6s per bay. An engineer would have to calculate it, to know for sure.
3. Build a wall in the center to support the floor above
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:38 PM   #22
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


Depending on what grade, and that those are true 2x6 dimensional lumber, 16 on center, you are talking @ 30lbs/ft2: Joist spacing: 16 Selected structure: 11' - 4'' Number 1: 10' - 11'' Number 2: 10' - 9''
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...an-d_1479.html
http://www.askthebuilder.com/B124_Fl...ts_Table.shtml

Do not know how the OP is determining that there is bounce in the floor. As homes settle, yes flooring is going to have bounce, due to they did not use glues, etc to hold the sub to the joist framing.

http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-ad...-systems.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon...alloon_framing

Also see this about using steel reinforcement: http://www.construction-resource.com...ead.php?t=5631
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item...le-heavy-loads
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:14 PM   #23
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


Very simple like i said 6" steel joists. Problem solved and the floor does not need to raise or the ceiling drop.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:35 PM   #24
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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Very simple like i said 6" steel joists. Problem solved and the floor does not need to raise or the ceiling drop.
That is a very good option that I didn't even think of. Probably the best option. Probably very pricey though
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:25 PM   #25
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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Very simple like i said 6" steel joists. Problem solved and the floor does not need to raise or the ceiling drop.
One thing to be concerned about with this idea would be the additional weight that would be put on the balloon construction.
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:32 PM   #26
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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One thing to be concerned about with this idea would be the additional weight that would be put on the balloon construction.
Light gauge cold rolled steel joists weigh less than conventional lumber that result in the same span capabilities.

I would probably pay $26-$28 per 16' steel joist (2x10x16 DF is $16-18) and it would far exceed your needs giving you a floor rated at 60 PSF. No changes to floor or ceiling height required. But then again you can try and mickey mouse your way through with pieces of plywood, glue, more 2x6's, etc. You get what you pay for.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:36 AM   #27
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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One thing to be concerned about with this idea would be the additional weight that would be put on the balloon construction.
Why would there be a load bearing penalty because of balloon construction?
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:41 AM   #28
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


Because you use ledgers in Balloon construction to support the upper floors, that are just nailed to the framing members.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:45 PM   #29
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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Because you use ledgers in Balloon construction to support the upper floors, that are just nailed to the framing members.
The ledgers are inset, so they aren't dependent on nails for support. The ledgers only span 16" (stud to stud) so their load carrying capacity is plenty high enough. There are millions of balloon framed houses out there and I would guess there isn't much to support the idea of failure because a ledger tore out or broke. The major reason I'm aware of for the demise of balloon framing is the ability of fire to travel from basement to attic unchecked including all the interstitial spaces. About 50 years ago the insurance industry led the push to restrict the use of balloon framing. There are some other drawbacks such as constructability and settlement due to shrinkage, but I've never heard that structural strength was an issue. If there is some documentation that states otherwise, I'd love to read it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:47 PM   #30
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Second floor joists are horribly undersized.....options?


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Because you use ledgers in Balloon construction to support the upper floors, that are just nailed to the framing members.

The ledgers are inset, so they aren't dependent on nails for support. The ledgers only span 16" (stud to stud) so their load carrying capacity is plenty high enough. There are millions of balloon framed houses out there and I would guess there isn't much to support the idea of failure because a ledger tore out or broke. The major reason I'm aware of for the demise of balloon framing is the ability of fire to travel from basement to attic unchecked including all the interstitial spaces. NFPA and the insurance industry led the push to restrict the use of balloon framing. There are some other drawbacks such as constructability and settlement due to shrinkage, but I've never heard that structural strength was an issue. If there is some documentation that states otherwise, I'd love to read it.

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