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Old 12-23-2011, 06:38 AM   #16
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Sagging beam replacement


As I read it--Mr. Gump's assessment was accurate---It is a poor bit of engineering---



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Old 12-23-2011, 10:29 AM   #17
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Sagging beam replacement


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Originally Posted by oh'mike View Post
As I read it--Mr. Gump's assessment was accurate---It is a poor bit of engineering---



---Mike---
Gee, I think that's obvious. Why would I be on here asking about replacing a sagging beam?

I really don't mind Mr. Gump marveling over the poor engineering. It's the follow-up insult, that we could do without. Have I explained this well enough, or do I need to draw you a picture?

See how my last comment appears to be innocent, but really is an insult. I just did that for illustrative purposes, not to be rude. I just wanted you to get the full impact.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:55 AM   #18
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Thanks Reload, I understand now. If that were my job I would support all the way to ground or foundation in each wall under the weight bearing wall. I would install a beam that is rated to handle the load of the roof and if it didn't take the swag out of the floor joist I would sister them with LVLs or similar.
Sounds like good advice. In your opinion, if I sistered any of the beams (new or existing), would your advice be to run the sisters the full length and put studs underneath them at the load bearing wall?

You may have already said this, but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks!
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:56 AM   #19
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Sagging beam replacement


Let me take this opportunity to apologize to you for my rather rude comment about the engineering on this house. I feel my comment was accurate but not warranted.

Now, to answer your questions about using LVLs or some other joist member to fix this bad situation; what you actually need is someone to properly design a solution to this whole mess.
That would include a full assessment of the area in question, what is below it, how much load is being carried, what your other loads are (wind, live, etc). This will depend greatly on your location and what the local Building officials will allow for your area. Off hand it seems you need to install some sort of beam member to carry the load of the roof, wall etc. to the existing foundation provided the foundation will carry the loads involved.
What kind of beam will depend on many other factors that we do not know at this time; are you going to perform the work, if not does your contractor wish to work with a wood solution or will he be willing to work with steel if need be.

What are your needs, requirements for insulation? Does plumbing need to go in this area? Electrical?

Your a smart guy, I think you can see that trying to have this designed for you by the good intentioned people of an internet forum is probably not the right way to go about gaining a solution.

Andy.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:15 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by reload View Post
Sounds like good advice. In your opinion, if I sistered any of the beams (new or existing), would your advice be to run the sisters the full length and put studs underneath them at the load bearing wall?

You may have already said this, but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks!
Yes sir, full length, with to foundation support under each end. As suggested before, you really do need to take the snow load into consideration although it hasn't come down yet with what is there, any added help will only be added peace of mind that it won't come down around your ears. But a proper sized beam under the wall is a must.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:32 PM   #21
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Yes sir, full length, with to foundation support under each end. As suggested before, you really do need to take the snow load into consideration although it hasn't come down yet with what is there, any added help will only be added peace of mind that it won't come down around your ears. But a proper sized beam under the wall is a must.
Thanks. I will definitely take the snow into consideration.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:57 PM   #22
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Let me take this opportunity to apologize to you for my rather rude comment about the engineering on this house. I feel my comment was accurate but not warranted.

Now, to answer your questions about using LVLs or some other joist member to fix this bad situation; what you actually need is someone to properly design a solution to this whole mess.
That would include a full assessment of the area in question, what is below it, how much load is being carried, what your other loads are (wind, live, etc). This will depend greatly on your location and what the local Building officials will allow for your area. Off hand it seems you need to install some sort of beam member to carry the load of the roof, wall etc. to the existing foundation provided the foundation will carry the loads involved.
What kind of beam will depend on many other factors that we do not know at this time; are you going to perform the work, if not does your contractor wish to work with a wood solution or will he be willing to work with steel if need be.

What are your needs, requirements for insulation? Does plumbing need to go in this area? Electrical?

Your a smart guy, I think you can see that trying to have this designed for you by the good intentioned people of an internet forum is probably not the right way to go about gaining a solution.

Andy.
Apology accepted.

I am simply wanting to get some ideas or suggestions. I have already had an engineer and a builder look at this problem, but they don't have the same solutions. I don't mind getting different solutions, but I would rather get more ideas than less.

On a different project, I had 1 engineer tell me I needed 40 interior piers. Another one told me I didn't need any because I just had an unevenly poured slab. That's a pretty big swing in price.

On this project, my good engineer (and he is really good) wants me to put a post in the middle of the garage... which I am not going to do.

Obviously you have seen the cartoon attached... That's what I'm dealing with.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:29 PM   #23
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Curious to get some thoughts from the pros on this board on what I am doing.

I have a 2nd story room that hangs out about 6' over a garage. I have included a drawing of the layout of the joists and the room above.

My question is: Can I simply replace each joist 1-by-1, whilst supporting the neighboring joists? I'm thinking about using stronger joists like LVL to avoid this problem in the future. Or I-joists, perhaps.

As supports whilst replacing the 2 x 12s, I was thinking about using a 2 rows of 4 bottle jacks and 4 x 4 posts.

Any thoughts or better ideas?

Thanks for any ideas you may have.

Reload
I haven't read any posts in this yet, so if I cover bases already covered, I apologize.

1. Who designed this? There is no way that passed inspection. NO WAY unless the INspector just signed the paper and never looked at it. Holy crap.

2. Where are the supports for the floor joists?

3. Where are the support beams?

4. Why is half the roof being supported by such a small section?

5. How did this pass inspection?

6. Install floor joists on both sides of each floor joist. After that, take pieces of 2x4, or 2x6, your preference. And go from underneath floor joists and connect them via wood glue and nails.

Personally, I'd rather have a 4x12 running horizontally against them, support with concrete slabs.

7. HOW DID THIS PASS INSPECTION?

EDIT I just realized it was a second floor, not a houses floor structure.

SO...

scratch the 4x12s. Personally, I'd rather have 4x12s routed horizontally, but that's a dream at this point, because you'll need manpower to get it up there.

But definitely reinforce that floor with more floor joists. I'd do another joist on each side. Also, regarding the weight, you need to add another support beam from the floor to the center of that weight load. Definitely. That garage floor, is waiting to collapse. I have no idea how the heck this could have passed an inspection. OMG.

PS, that 2'' sag will not be removed without the new support beam underneath to push/hold it back up. The additional floor joists, are the keep it from callapsing completely.

Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-23-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:43 PM   #24
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I think, as a DIYer myself. I'd sister som jack studs under that 2x plate under new 2x12's, install new 2x12's crown up, lay edges o jack studs and just drive those suckers in. try to bring old joist even at bottom and stove bolt together. each one should get easier to drive in as you go.

may not be engineering way? but I'd try it!
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:48 PM   #25
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:56 PM   #26
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I haven't read any posts in this yet, so if I cover bases already covered, I apologize.

1. Who designed this? There is no way that passed inspection. NO WAY unless the INspector just signed the paper and never looked at it. Holy crap.

2. Where are the supports for the floor joists?

3. Where are the support beams?

4. Why is half the roof being supported by such a small section?

5. How did this pass inspection?

6. Install floor joists on both sides of each floor joist. After that, take pieces of 2x4, or 2x6, your preference. And go from underneath floor joists and connect them via wood glue and nails.

Personally, I'd rather have a 4x12 running horizontally against them, support with concrete slabs.

7. HOW DID THIS PASS INSPECTION?

EDIT I just realized it was a second floor, not a houses floor structure.

SO...

scratch the 4x12s. Personally, I'd rather have 4x12s routed horizontally, but that's a dream at this point, because you'll need manpower to get it up there.

But definitely reinforce that floor with more floor joists. I'd do another joist on each side. Also, regarding the weight, you need to add another support beam from the floor to the center of that weight load. Definitely. That garage floor, is waiting to collapse. I have no idea how the heck this could have passed an inspection. OMG.

PS, that 2'' sag will not be removed without the new support beam underneath to push/hold it back up. The additional floor joists, are the keep it from callapsing completely.
Thank you for your input.

There was no inspection on this property. I inherited the property. It was free.

Now... are you saying I need to put a post underneath the middle of the upstairs wall? Like in the center of the garage?

You said you thought the garage floor is waiting to collapse. Did you mean the bedroom floor / garage ceiling?
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:07 PM   #27
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I too had a lot of trouble understanding the exact geometry of the structure. I cannot tell how long the joists are, I can't tell how the joists are supported on the far end, and I can't tell what the load on the joists is. All of which is necessary to understand in order to develop alternatives.

As a professional engineer, I stay well away from actually designing anything free over the internet, too much liability. But I am happy to suggest alternative approaches that you may want to consider, with the understanding that whichever approach you select, it is your responsibility to hire a professional engineer or architect to finalize the design, develop the details, and verify constructability.

If you post some more details of the length of the joists, the method of support on each end, and the load on the system, I can try to suggest some options for support.
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:07 PM   #28
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I think, as a DIYer myself. I'd sister som jack studs under that 2x plate under new 2x12's, install new 2x12's crown up, lay edges o jack studs and just drive those suckers in. try to bring old joist even at bottom and stove bolt together. each one should get easier to drive in as you go.

may not be engineering way? but I'd try it!
I like it. Thank you.
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:11 PM   #29
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I too had a lot of trouble understanding the exact geometry of the structure. I cannot tell how long the joists are, I can't tell how the joists are supported on the far end, and I can't tell what the load on the joists is. All of which is necessary to understand in order to develop alternatives.

As a professional engineer, I stay well away from actually designing anything free over the internet, too much liability. But I am happy to suggest alternative approaches that you may want to consider, with the understanding that whichever approach you select, it is your responsibility to hire a professional engineer or architect to finalize the design, develop the details, and verify constructability.

If you post some more details of the length of the joists, the method of support on each end, and the load on the system, I can try to suggest some options for support.
Thank you. I will see if I can determine the exact wall support system.

I know the joists are 20'. Let me get you some more info.
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:28 PM   #30
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Thank you for your input.

There was no inspection on this property. I inherited the property. It was free.

Now... are you saying I need to put a post underneath the middle of the upstairs wall? Like in the center of the garage?

You said you thought the garage floor is waiting to collapse. Did you mean the bedroom floor / garage ceiling?
With all due respect, that development should not exist at all right now. It has no support. By "waiting to collapse" what I mean by that, is its sagging because of the weight. Without proper support for that weight, it will collapse. As you add weight onto it, and as it naturally ages, integrity gradually fails.

I can't even believe that development on that second floor exists if that drawing is accurate.

By support beam, I mean there should be a reinforced support beam in the center mass of where the weight is located, pushing it up that 2'' so its level, and weight is supported.

YOu need to reinforce that floor, or that floor will come down eventually. ONe of those joists will eventually give, and it will fall in. Maybe not in the next day, or week, but eventually it will collapse. It has no support, and should have never been constructed the way it is.

On a commcercial building, that garage would have been shut down, and you'd have entire crews rushing to get that floor reinforced, supported, etc.

The support beam(s) should be placed towards the center of gravity for the weight being distributed. You could divide the weight between two support beams, but if there isn't enough room you could possibly go with one. However, Per code, you're required to have so many support beams for such much sq ft and lbs per sq ft.

You really should have an engineer or architect look over it. And then have a PROFESSIONAL Building Contractor construct the proper design per blue prints.

But that scares the crap out of me. (the fact they have so much weight concentrated on a spot like that) Just so you know, a 1'' sag on a commercial building, can have the entire permit for vacancy stripped from a building, and an entire building shut down. Even a sky scraper, to as small as a Fire Department building. Unless that sag was support via proper supports and the floor was deemed reinforced for it.

A big problem you'll have in putting sister joists in, or one joist each side, is the "sag" creates and "arch" if you will. (a bad kind of arch) So a contractor may need to jack up the floor, or take the floor apart and put it back together to put reinforcements into it.


Last edited by BigGuy01; 12-23-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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