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Old 11-08-2012, 11:31 PM   #1
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Removal of support boards above the garage


I want to add a walk-in closet in the space above the garage. Today I climbed up from within the garage to take a look at the space to survey the lay of the land. I took a picture and attached it for reference.

My question is, can I remove these support boards without worrying about the lack of support for the roof? If you look at the picture, I'm talking about the angled 2x6's that run from the roof down to the support beam that runs the length of the garage. There are 3 on each side and there is a single 2x4 support board that goes up against the gable side wall. They are not part of a truss system or anything, they're just toe-nailed in.

The insulated room (bathroom) already goes part of the way over the garage. So I will just be cutting a doorway into that wall and extending off of that room. The current floor joists are 2x6's but I'll be sistering them with a 2x10 so that the floor height matches that of the bathroom (those joists are already 2x10).
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:23 AM   #2
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Removal of support boards above the garage


they may very well be structural.

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Old 11-09-2012, 06:33 AM   #3
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Removal of support boards above the garage


They are structural, plus that celing is just barely built strong enough to hold the sheetrock up.
I would not feel comfortable even walking on it.
Not even close to being able to support more weight.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:40 AM   #4
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Removal of support boards above the garage


Agree---the supports are structural----for strength and insulation/ventilation you could sister in new larger roof rafters----2x12 are required around here to achieve required insulation value with fiberglass bats.

Spray foam might be an option that would allow the use of thinner rafters.

Let's see if someone more knowledgeable will comment---
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #5
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Removal of support boards above the garage


dajate,

Welcome to the Forum!

A simple answer (that's not so simple) is yes, they can be removed .... but only after an evaluation by a professional engineer and their determining how to remove them, and what if any other structural members that need to be installed.

to do so otherwise would risk not only your health and safety but your financial investment as well.

attempting to perform a structural evaluation from a photo is unrealistic. an engineer would need to visit your site and observe for themselves all existing conditions, determine load paths and stresses in existing structural members. Sometimes things that look simple can be more complicated than we can realize.

I personally would not trust anyone that I did not know their level of knowledge and experience in advising me it was ok to remove them. If you ask long enough or post on enough forums you're bound to find someone that will tell you it's ok ...... But would you????

Good luck!
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:46 AM   #6
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Removal of support boards above the garage


those supports seem to provide resistance against deflection but there is some question as to how far they would hold before the 2x4 turned edgeways against the rafters twisted/buckled from the force so, you could pull off your fascia board so as to slide new ones up in there and upsize the new rafters that are added/sistered next to the current ones unless there is an obstacle at the top plate that would prevent that.

the support going from the gable wall up to the ridge is helping hold the roof system in rack and square, so that would need to be dealt with.

Last edited by hand drive; 11-09-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:27 AM   #7
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Removal of support boards above the garage


From what I am seeing it looks like the slanting 2X4s are trying to support the wrong thing. The room behind the rigid insulation is resting on 2X10 or 2X12 floor joist, the best I can see, and as you said the joists in the fore picture are 2X6s. These 2X6s aren't going to hold the pressure of the roof unless there is a beam or wall below.

Surely the braces can't be to hold the joists up because of the way they are fixed to the rafters, they are intended to reinforce the roof. Just MHO, if the floor joists were the same as the other room, there already, and the same support below as the other room, and the same walls from floor to rafters were the same, I wouldn't see a problem. The other room is holding things good from what I see; so if it is duplicated both below and above in all aspects why wouldn't it work?
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:08 AM   #8
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Removal of support boards above the garage


To confirm a couple things. The floor joists are 2x6 but they don't span the entire width of the garage. From about where I'm standing (to take the picture) running forward toward the currently insulated room is a steel i-beam. The angled support boards I'm wanting to remove sit on the top plate of that i-beam.

Also, I will be sistering all of these 2x6 floor joists with 2x10's for two reasons. The first is to strengthen the floor to support more weight but also to match the currently finished room.

I hadn't thought too much about sistering up the rafters to be thicker than the current 2x6 to support thicker insulation. Good point. I don't think the currently finished bathroom had done that but I'll look closer.

Thanks for all the replies so far! I just found this forum and I'm enjoying reading what others' projects are.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:12 PM   #9
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Removal of support boards above the garage


The 2xs running perpendicular to the roof rafters are called "purlins" others may spell this differently than I.

They allow one to use smaller sized lumber for the roof rafters as they take up about half the load of the roof rafters and transfer the loads to the beam via the angled brackets.

This is all in the prescriptive codes.

As Gary said, a design professional can design a system to allow you to remove them and replace with something else but it might be an expensive thing to do.

Probably not as expensive as taking them out and not properly remedying the situation and having the roof collapse though.

Andy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:55 PM   #10
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Removal of support boards above the garage


Quote:
Originally Posted by dajate View Post
To confirm a couple things. The floor joists are 2x6 but they don't span the entire width of the garage. From about where I'm standing (to take the picture) running forward toward the currently insulated room is a steel i-beam. The angled support boards I'm wanting to remove sit on the top plate of that i-beam.

Also, I will be sistering all of these 2x6 floor joists with 2x10's for two reasons. The first is to strengthen the floor to support more weight but also to match the currently finished room.

I hadn't thought too much about sistering up the rafters to be thicker than the current 2x6 to support thicker insulation. Good point. I don't think the currently finished bathroom had done that but I'll look closer.

Thanks for all the replies so far! I just found this forum and I'm enjoying reading what others' projects are.
The new sistered rafter does provide more insulation area but more importantly, it would provide support ( if installed correctly) to the roof rafters where the brace would come out. when the other part was built the braces were obviously removed and there was no support added into the rafter system to take up for the removed braces unless they added to the ridge somehow, (not showing in pic). There is an I bneam to put weight on but without the specs you would not know how much weight could be transferred etc...

After you figure out the brace situation your best bet is to remove the insulation on that wall and make the framing for the closet match the other rooms framing, collar tie at the ceilings and the walls
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:19 PM   #11
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Removal of support boards above the garage


Andy, would you like "struts" to go with those "purlins"? LOL

dajate, scroll to bottom of page for code requirements and a diagram, here; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...?bu2=undefined

Did you notice this table from there? TABLE R802.5.1(2)—continued RAFTER SPANS FOR COMMON LUMBER SPECIES (Roof live load=20 psf, ceiling attached to rafters, L// = 240)

That is your local snow load (20#) giving you the maximum span of the rafters- just need to figure the species, grade, and if more than one layer of asphalt shingles or other- on the roof for dead loads. eg.- 2x6, various species = 11'5" to 12'3" span without the purlins and struts you have. Actually, the purlins are required to be same size as rafters= 2x6, not 2x4 (doesn't meet minimum code if required at all for your span).

The insulation for your Zone 4: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic..._11_par002.htm

is R-38 in ceiling: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic..._11_sec002.htm

Which does require furring the existing rafters, plus a 1" (minimum) air space = 11-1/4": http://www.jm.com/insulation/faqs/1024.htm unless you add some PIC or other high R-value foam board to the mix.

You should get a permit for the attic conversion to be safe and satisfy your H.O. Insurance carrier.

Gary

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