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Recently Topped Up Attic with Blown Insulation...Now I have Frost/Condensation

51K views 81 replies 16 participants last post by  wilsonstark 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I recently had moisture issues in my attic that seemed to be caused by warm air escaping from my home into the attic and not being vented out properly.

I have recently gotten my attic toped up with blown-in insulation (6 inches) which now gives me an R-value of about 50.

Problem now is that there is some frost build-up on the attic roof and the nails look like little snowballs.

It seems that the problem with my attic now is not enough intake ventilation from the soffit vents since the frost in the attic is most prominent at the ends of the roof. It looks like the plywood simply goes to the end of the soffit, therefore, there are no holes to vent from. I have gable ends, but these do not seem to be enough to vent any warm air that may be escaping from my home into the attic.


I may need to get a ridge vent installed on the peak of my roof for now because I can't do much about the soffit vents at the moment... in the spring I'm going to drill small holes in the plywood beneath the soffit vents (not too many to weaken the wood but enough to get some good aitflow going).


So it seems like I fixed one problem, but created another, or, the issue with the moisture was ventilation all along and not lack of insulation (though the extra insulation can't hurt I suppose).

The insulation is a big improvement, but probably what happened was that the initial moisture I had in there was being caused by warm air coming into the attic from the kitchen and bathroom upstairs, and because the soffit vents were not ventilating properly, this caused a temperature differential in the attic, which caused the condensation... so adding the insulation is keeping the warm air out more, but at the same time, the warm air that IS getting in is being trapped more, so when it hits the underside of the roof, which is much colder, it turns to frost..

frost is better than water, but still needs to be fixed.

Also, I have an air exchanger up there that currently does not work. I have bought a new one but it is too large to fit in the attic hatch :furious:

So ayways, I'm thinking the air exchanger vents may be contributing to the problem (small air leaks from these vents. I have some loose material that I could just stuff into the vents (similar to synthetic pillow stuffing), but not in the actual ducts. Also, should I seal off the intake/exhaust vents outside going to the air exchanger?

I'm looking for some opinions on this issue and what would be the best course of action to take at this point. I'm thinking the ridge vent is a good idea, but I have no idea how much something like this usually costs $$$.

Thanks in advance...

Eric.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Want to put an intake fan in a gable vent for the time being? Of course you will need adequate square inches of vent at the other end of the house to let warmer air out.

Also seal up any holes letting warm inside air up into the attic, including gaps in heating and air conditioning ducts as quickly as you can.

Nothing should exhaust directly into the attic. Outside exhaust ducts should not be near soffit vents or other attic vents where the exhaust air could find its way in.

If frost accumulates to look like balls, it will melt and drip all over the place even on a winter day when the sun is out and there is no snow on the roof.
 
#5 ·
Where can I get an intake fan? Like a local hardware store?
What can I use to seal these holes? I'm thinking, as I stated earlier, that a large amount of the moisture is most likely coming from a few places.

1. My 2 attic hatches are nothing more than slabs of fiberboard sitting on the hatch frame.

2.The bathroom fan (My wife, who just got home from the hospital with my new son was taking a bath when she heard dripping) I came directly home from work to realize that the dripping was caused by frost that had built-up on the metal casing of the fan and the steam from her bath caused it to melt. This is what lead me to investigate the attic when that's when I noticed the frost. The exhaust for this fan was initally blowing into my attic so we attached the hose to the gable end so that it vents directly outside now. My second bathroom on the third level's fan vents directly outside and does not go into the attic.

3. These Air Exchanger vents, which are not currently being used may be allowing warm air so seap through the openings in the ceiling. As I said, I do have some pillow stuffing type material that may help short-term...

What do you think about the idea of blocking the exchanger vents with this material?

Thanks for the reply.
 
#3 ·
It seems like you have a decent understanding of the forces at work. The new insulation is helping keep the house warmer and the attic colder, but there's still moisture getting up there and not enough ventilation. It sounds like you have soffit vents and gable end vents. This condition typically doesn't work, especially on larger homes. You need soffit vents AND a ridge vent. When wind blows across your roof, a slight pressure differential causes air to be pulled out from the ridge vent which is replaced by air coming in from the soffit vents. Without both, the system doesn't work. Adding a ridge vent shouldn't cost much, I recently replaced a 40' long one for $500.
 
#4 ·
It seems like you have a decent understanding of the forces at work. The new insulation is helping keep the house warmer and the attic colder, but there's still moisture getting up there and not enough ventilation. It sounds like you have soffit vents and gable end vents. This condition typically doesn't work, especially on larger homes. You need soffit vents AND a ridge vent. When wind blows across your roof, a slight pressure differential causes air to be pulled out from the ridge vent which is replaced by air coming in from the soffit vents. Without both, the system doesn't work. Adding a ridge vent shouldn't cost much, I recently replaced a 40' long one for $500.
Yes, I do have soffit vents and gable ends. I don't think the soffit vents are doing much since when the contractor came over to add the insulation he noticed that they may be covered by the plywood from the roof and therefore not effeciently taking care of the ventilation. He suggested I remove the soffit vents, drill small holes into the plywood, then put the soffit vents back on.
My home is not very large. It is a 1300Sqft 4-level split. Problem is I have 2 roofs so I would need a ridge vent on both.

Do you think, the drill holes, on top of adding the ridge vent, is a good idea?

Thanks for the reply.
 
#6 ·
I personally would not consider the powered vent an option at this point. Before you do that, you need to properly ventilate the roof. Drilling little holes near the soffit vents isn't adequate either, you need the full benefit of each vent you have. Even a powered fan needs excellent soffit ventilation in order to be effective.

As mentioned, cross-ventilation is critical. Soffit vents alone or ridge/rooftop/acorn vents alone are generally worthless...Both must be there and unobstructed to work effectively in conjunction with each other.

There are lots of ways to vent a roof. Here, you rarely see ridge vents. Instead, a number of square roof vents or spinning acorns are installed.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Hint: For an intake fan you might have an exhaust fan mounted backwards.

Unlike an exhaust fan, an intake fan does not have the tendency under some conditions to draw more warm humid air from the living space up into the attic.

The hose from the bathroom fan to the outside, should it run through the attic, should be insulated.

Anything, duct tape, etc. is better than nothing for sealing cracks where warm humid air from the living space or heating ducts gets into the attic.

For a whole house attic fan, at the very least cover the big louver in the ceiling with plastic sheeting taped all around but stuffing a blanket of insulation on top manually removed in the spring is even better. Same for the hatches.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Ok, so I've installed some plastic over the attic hatches (The same you would use on windows in the winter) and I have stuffed the air exchanger vent with some pillow-type stuffing. So there potential air leaks are pretty sealed now. Hopefully this will at least slow the heat loss until I can get the attic ventilated properly.

The guy who topped off my attic should be here on Thursday to see what options we have, though I think a ridge vent/acorn is the way to go.

As I said, I have not been able to go outside and remove the soffit vent to see if in fact it is just one solid piece of plywood under those vents.

If so, what would be the best way to go about it?


For a whole house attic fan, at the very least cover the big louver in the ceiling with plastic sheeting taped all around but stuffing a blanket of insulation on top manually removed in the spring is even better. Same for the hatches.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Louver" Sorry. :-(
 
#9 ·
Every electrical box you have in the ceiling lets house air into the attic. These can be sealed around the box with caulking. By code nothing should be in the box but wires and the connection points. The backside of the box where the wires come out can be sealed with fire-proof foam, but none can be in the box.

Think about how the house is built, I'm sure its all covered with insulation now, but typically electrical wires are run through the attic and then back down in each wall to an electrical box. Holes are drilled through sill plates and studs to get the wires to that point, they are often not resealed. That means you have air going up through your outlets into your wall and up into your attic. Solution is to seal up the electrical box at your wall best you can. I recently had thermal imaging done at my house that showed these problems.

Also, anywhere air comes in helps make the problem worse. If there are air leaks around windows that lets the air in more easily, these should all be sealed as well. I had major air leakage around my washing-machine supply and drainage panel that was covered up with a trim piece, and more around my dryer vent. Turns out air was leaking out of my house from just about every conceivable source.

Each doorway in the house leaks, the drywall isn't finished because it has trim covering it up. Sure enough the trim piece on the top of the door way isn't caulked (you can't see it anyway) and air leaks out (or in) there. That air must be going up into the attic. Some of the holes for the door knobs into the door frame were drilled too deep, sure enough air comes right through them.

It was quite an eye opener for me. There are lots of places to seal up.
 
#10 ·
yup..I wnet into my attic before the top up blown in was done..sealed all electrical fixtures with vapour barrier, caulk and spray foam....wire holes in top plates..pulled back insulation from eves..installed a few styro joist thingies..then blew it in..
I had solid sofits as well but drilled a few holes before doing the vented soffit covering..I have 6 roof vents and two big gable vents..but just in case
I am checking tomorrow for frost build up on nail heads.
 
#11 ·
Louver -- The semi-attractive grillwork that covers a fan opening or vent opening. For whole house attic fans it usually has movable parts to close off the opening but usually not good enough to prevent warm air from going up in winter.

Often the attic floor insulation, especially blown insulation, fills the eave soffit area and may even block existing soffit vents. Cutting new soffit vents therefore becomes a project. You need to clear away insulation and in most cases install (usually) styrofoam sheet baffles in the rafters to let air in and resist clogging as the insulation resettles.
 
#14 ·
if you are getting that much condensation in your attic, did you make sure that you had a proper vapour barrier down before you had the insulation blown in? If not, the insulation maybe slowing the heat loss, but he moisture is still going through the same as before, if not faster since the inside of your house is warmer.

The plastic you put on your attic entries is pretty much useless, you need 6mm for a proper vapour barrier. I would also put a strip of rubber down where board lies. Since that piece isn't insulated, you might also think about buying some regular insulation so you can have a piece sitting on top of the board to insulate it.

As others have said, make sure your bathroom vent, as well as the vent over your stove both blow right outside, and not just into the attic.

An option for the stove fan is to replace it, and put in a new one that has a carbon filter and have it blow into the house so you don't have to do even more roof work, and it is one less area for warm air inside the house to leak out.
 
#17 · (Edited)
if you are getting that much condensation in your attic, did you make sure that you had a proper vapour barrier down before you had the insulation blown in? If not, the insulation maybe slowing the heat loss, but he moisture is still going through the same as before, if not faster since the inside of your house is warmer.

The plastic you put on your attic entries is pretty much useless, you need 6mm for a proper vapour barrier. I would also put a strip of rubber down where board lies. Since that piece isn't insulated, you might also think about buying some regular insulation so you can have a piece sitting on top of the board to insulate it.

As others have said, make sure your bathroom vent, as well as the vent over your stove both blow right outside, and not just into the attic.

An option for the stove fan is to replace it, and put in a new one that has a carbon filter and have it blow into the house so you don't have to do even more roof work, and it is one less area for warm air inside the house to leak out.
Should there be a vapour barrier placed on the floorspace of the entire attic? I know there is some underneath those whole house fan vents because when I removed it to put some pillow stuffing stuff in there, I can feel the plastic, but I do not know if it covers the entire attic space...

Example:
layer 1 : Attic floor.
layer 2: vapour barrier
layer 3: Pink insulation
layer 4: Blown insulation

If not, how on earth would I go about putting some now?


There is a piece of vapour barrier and some regular insulation sitting on top of the board. I have also stuffed a towel underneath where the board sits on the frame, then sealed it with stickey strips and plastic.

When he came to blow in the insulation, he attached the hose that goes from the bathroom fan directly to the gable end, though I do not think that hose is insulated. Would I need to buy another hose? or simply wrap a type of hose insulation around it?
 
#18 ·
Drop by HD or Lowes . In the gutter/ soffit vent isle you will find the spec sheets on soffit to rooftop ratios for venting. Also try a few web sites for soffit ventilation info. I believe your square footage and pitch are part of the formula. No qusetion the soffits need to breath up through baffles now to vent the damp air trapped up there. As mentuioned check what`s venting into the attic from the bath fans, etc or you`ll be in nasty shape by spring. Don`t wait. If necessary reach out your bedroom windows to cut into the soffits, but investigate the baffles as well. One every other space is the norm in most new construction I have seen, at least one every 3rd.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Drop by HD or Lowes . In the gutter/ soffit vent isle you will find the spec sheets on soffit to rooftop ratios for venting. Also try a few web sites for soffit ventilation info. I believe your square footage and pitch are part of the formula. No qusetion the soffits need to breath up through baffles now to vent the damp air trapped up there. As mentuioned check what`s venting into the attic from the bath fans, etc or you`ll be in nasty shape by spring. Don`t wait. If necessary reach out your bedroom windows to cut into the soffits, but investigate the baffles as well. One every other space is the norm in most new construction I have seen, at least one every 3rd.
Thanks...

So, based on all the responses and the online reading I have done. This is what it seems I need to do.

1. Ensure any leaks or warm air that may be making its way up from the living space to the attic needs to be sealed off.

2. Ensure that air is able to enter the soffit vents from the outside in order to have proper ventilation.



3.Install a ridge vent on both roof tops in order because this is needed alongside soffit vents for this ventilation system to work.



4.Block off both gable ends as these do not work with soffit vents, and are, therefore, creating a short circuit effect on my soffit/ridge vent combo.




So I guess my question would be: why do I have gable ends and soffit vents to begin with if they are proven not to work properly togther... Seems a real genius built this house. I've only owned it since early 2006. It will be 3 years next month.
 
#21 ·
alot of this type talk in the roofing page,,,right here. Lots of roofers and experts on how and why's of doing what.

MOST say to take your soffit material(whether it is vinyl or alluminum material OFF and take off ALL soffit plywood "completely"and reinstall continous vented soffits AFTER making sure rafter bays are open and air flowing with aid of styrofoam baffles,,,then your ridge vents work right AND block off any gable vents!! Most guys there say the mushroom style or turbine style vents dont really work worth a hoot.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Here's a good article about ventilation! Very informative!

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_001.cfm

Consumers > Maintaining a Home > General Maintenance and Repair > Attic Venting, Attic Moisture and Ice Dams
The following fact sheet is part of the About Your House — General Series




Attic Venting, Attic Moisture and Ice Dams

It is rare for Canadians to visit their attics. For many years building codes have required high levels of attic insulation, making attics less-than-hospitable places. People usually go into their attics for one of two reasons: animal intruders, such as bats or squirrels, or water leaking through the top floor ceiling. This guide deals with water entry, such as roof leaks, ice dams, and attic condensation. Consult your local pest control expert to rid the attic of creatures.


Where to look for leaks


  • around plumbing stacks or plumbing walls
  • chimneys through the attic
  • any light fixtures from the ceiling below
  • electric wiring
  • ducting for fans or heating systems
  • perimeter walls
  • partition walls
  • party walls
  • above pocket doors
  • above lowered ceilings
  • where the side of a cathedral ceiling meets an open attic
  • split level discontinuities
  • where additions meet an older section of the house
  • above rounded corners or staircases
  • balloon frame walls

Figure 2: Leakage areas on split level houses​
Attic Venting

If you have properly sealed the attic you should not need more attic ventilation. Attic ventilation is overrated.

Recent research shows that identical attics, with one unvented and the other vented to code, have much the same humidity and temperature. Attic computer models show that attics in damp coastal climates may actually be drier with less ventilation.
Building codes require attic ventilation. Ventilation may make a difference in a borderline situation. Attic ventilation is driven primarily by wind. To ensure thorough venting, have openings at the soffits and then higher on the roof at the ridge, gable end, or high on the roof surface. The requirement for attic vent sizing is nominally 1:300
 
#24 ·
Here's a good article about ventilation! Very informative!

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_001.cfm


Attic Venting

If you have properly sealed the attic you should not need more attic ventilation. Attic ventilation is overrated.

Recent research shows that identical attics, with one unvented and the other vented to code, have much the same humidity and temperature. Attic computer models show that attics in damp coastal climates may actually be drier with less ventilation.
Building codes require attic ventilation. Ventilation may make a difference in a borderline situation. Attic ventilation is driven primarily by wind. To ensure thorough venting, have openings at the soffits and then higher on the roof at the ridge, gable end, or high on the roof surface. The requirement for attic vent sizing is nominally 1:300
This is a crazy article. Not sure I buy that you don't need any ventilation. or as they said: "with one unvented and the other vented to code, have much the same humidity and temperature." crazy.
 
#26 ·
I live in Canada, but haven't read this info.

We currently have federal and provincial rebates for increasing attic insulation to a max of R50. The ECOENERGY website and others I have been to discuss the house as a system, as in attic ventilation as a system.
I have lived here in -55 F winters and + 100 F summers and I am now nestled between the Great Lakes. My shingles baked on the west side of my house within 12 years with only 3 roof top vents and underspec soffit ventilation for my 700 foot attic. In addition my top floor was an oven in the summer, cool in the winter. Although I don't visit there much but I can assure you on a hot summer day prior to improving the rooftop venting it hit 130 degrees. Because we ahve basements we don't inhabit most of our attics nor put much HVAC stuff up there
Ice dams continued to form on my East facing valleys until I upgraded insulation and increased soffit ventilation in my plywood soffits and added baffles between the rafterslast month. We have had in excess of 24 inches of snow since Dec 24th and NO ICE DAMS.

BTW over the December billing period my gas consumption in cubic feet has dropped by 25% over last year same period with SAME AVERAGE temp, Same programable T stat , same settings with same MID E furnace. So IMHO this stuff works.

I am offering several remaining well baked shingles found on my last visit to the atticfree to any doubters, you pay the shipping.:)
 
#31 ·
You can't. They spent a good part of the early 60's putting plastic everywhere when they thought electricity was going to be cheap. The power companies recommended a total encapsulation and would give you a free water heater if you installed electric heat and insulated their way.
In New England, where this occurred, they then spent the next few years actually cutting out the attic plastic vapor barrier and installing thicker insulation, due to the moisture build up and dampness created.
People who had the moisture barrier were running the temps in their homes over 74 degrees or higher to burn off the moisture before they discovered the problem.

Some solar energy people resurrected the idea again in the 70's and 80's with no idea what they were doing.

In remodeling I have been repairing the wall base shoe on some homes that is totally blackened from condensation in walls. I suspect plastic is actually just as good at containing moisture in walls as it is at keeping it out. I am pretty sure plastic sheets don't know what side the moisture is suppose to be on.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I would just like to say that the link that I posted, is to the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, owned and operated by the Government of Canada. Their recommendations will be used to formulate future building codes! The horse's mouth, so to speak! Its my understanding, that their research has shown that venting has little or no benefit for roof longevity! However, I just had a new roof installed, and paid for additional venting to be installed in both the soffits and at the ridge! http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_001.cfm
 
#33 ·
Venting barely affects the temperature in roofing materials so that is true. But moister causes rot and mold in the framing of a structure and that venting addresses.

Maybe in Canada the moisture content from the ground is different. New England is very damp as the ground water is prevalent.

Arizona would be wholly different, so advice or knowledge would apply differently there also.
 
#34 ·
I understand the debate Barrier versus none. I was in a new show home attic last week, with plenty of blown insulation R40 I'm sure. There was condensation above the barrier when I reached down to pick up my flashlight. It was about -3 that day. So what happens with the condensation with no barrier? Is it supposed to suck into the ceiling behind the paint and cause no damage.?????
 
#35 ·
So if I understand you correctly you have plastic film over the insulation in your attic that has puddles on it?

The theory is condensation vapors from your house atmosphere mainly rise with the heated air, warm air can support more moisture than cold air, and when it reaches colder air that can not support that moisture it drops off.

If the attic isn't vented properly the moisture hangs on things, rafters, sheathing and insulation. Obviously if you have moisture being contained by a barrier, or not getting out the vented attic, the moisture drops off and works its way back into the environment in what ever way it wishes, caused by a condition barrier or physical barrier.

If you have moisture on top of the barrier in an attic, your attic is saving moisture some how. I would wonder if it was because of the barrier, as insulation doesn't prevent moisture passage but plastic does.

Very cold air may be the barrier too and the plastic is catching the moisture as it falls out of the attic atmosphere. A good debate I am sure but moisture prevention is done in the basement and limited in the living environment and the rest is exhausted as best as possible from the attic.

At least that is the theory. Conditions in each environment create different solutions and problems, so often times there will be a case of reverse logic that some times has a positive affect.

An attic is not a dehumidifier so attempts to alleviate an over abundance of acquired moisture from below creates its share of problems. The best bet is always to prevent all gained moisture other than living condition moisture, such as breathing cooking and water usage, below the cellar slab. Then the only moisture to remove is minimal. If there is no plastic under the foundation, and you live on earth, there is a great likely hood that your spot upon it is evaporating moisture continuously into your habitat that you are trying to pass through an attic vent with little condition adjustable abilities.

I can only say that if what you are doing keeps the moisture out of the insulation and leaves it in a place that the attic can deal with it, in a way that doesn't harm the structure, then what you are doing may as well be right for your conditions.:thumbsup:
 
#36 ·
MISINFO see NRcan.gc.ca and energy star and R2000

Baron, the condensation I found was above the barrier, below the blown insulation. No forst on the underside of the roof.
Wildie, it is Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp and CMHC doesn't indicate which way we're headed. They are a mortgage loan insurance provider....
Ontario building code requires a vapour barrier, generally.... 6 mil, sealed with acoustical sealant or red contractor tape on all insulated exterior walls, ceilings, etc. installed on the warm side of insulation. New construction must pass inspection for insulation and barrier before drywalling.There are exceptions where spray foams, etc are being used.
We are also building super energy efficient homes under the Energy Star and R2000 ratings/guidelines. These utilize a much tighter ENVELOPE approach and promote specific material requirements for air seal, etc...
 
#38 · (Edited)
Baron, the condensation I found was above the barrier, below the blown insulation. No forst on the underside of the roof.
Wildie, it is Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp and CMHC doesn't indicate which way we're headed. They are a mortgage loan insurance provider....
Ontario building code requires a vapour barrier, generally.... 6 mil, sealed with acoustical sealant or red contractor tape on all insulated exterior walls, ceilings, etc. installed on the warm side of insulation. New construction must pass inspection for insulation and barrier before drywalling.There are exceptions where spray foams, etc are being used.
We are also building super energy efficient homes under the Energy Star and R2000 ratings/guidelines. These utilize a much tighter ENVELOPE approach and promote specific material requirements for air seal, etc...
I stand corrected! I guess that I have revealed something of my antiquity. If my memory serves correctly ( and it can be doubtful at times) it used to named Central M.....
The sneaky bu******rs changed the name without telling me! [grin] I know it was renamed, as I have one of their books, with the old name on it! :furious:

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) is Canada's national housing agency. We are committed to helping Canadians access a wide choice of quality, affordable homes, while making vibrant, healthy communities and cities a reality across the country. CMHC works to enhance Canada's housing finance options, assist Canadians who cannot afford housing in the private market, improve building standards and housing construction, and provide policymakers with the information and analysis they need to sustain a vibrant housing market in Canada.
 
#39 ·
Wildie here's what I know about CMHC from personal experience

CMHC does provide insurance for our (non private) banks on higher ratio loans beyond 75%. In doing so they also may inpsect a home internally to insure it's value for the lender. My first purchase was approved with a drive by as I had just over 22% for a larger home.
They didn't come in and discuss my aluminium wiring so what kind of information and analysis is that?
Anyway I don't think I would be reading their old books for qualified informed info... They did not come in and locate the 42" missing from my sill plate :oops:adjoining my garage, nor the 12' gap by 8" of missing plywood on my garage wall in the attic :eek: opening into my formerly drafty kitchen bulkhead, so like any DYI fanatic, I stumbled across them myself. Granted this was a quality home and codes were different when it was built as were inspections and its in an upscale neighbourhood ......so I was a VERY safe loan. But does this sound like someone with building industry knowledge?
 
#42 ·
Some how, I'm given the impression that you think that I espouse CMHC. I would direct your attention to where I stated that I personally, chose not to follow their direction, and had ventilation installed according to conventional wisdom! My intent was to give the original poster a web page, where he could gain some knowledge about his problem and nothing more! Somethings change with time and some things do not! I'm quite aware of all the wonderful advances that have be made in home construction and how its considered best to have a closed environment. Never the less, its all not coming up roses! We now have air quality problems, that we didn't have when we lived in drafty old house's with inefficient octupus gravity furnaces etc. There's a real possibility that our families health has been compromised, in the name of saving a couple of bucks! As witnessed by the OP's problem in the attic, which has a real potential to turn into a mold problem that could be bad for his health! Have we advanced?
 
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