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Re: old buildings

31K views 157 replies 5 participants last post by  mt999999 
#1 ·
Re: old buildings

mt999999 said:
First, I read through and looked at all 8 pages of pictures (multiple times), and I can say that the picture with the trash can collecting rainwater is in the Lowe building next door (fire escape outside window). The Lowe building needs most work, and certainly a new roof over it; it is included in the sale and attached on the upper levels. The main building is pretty solid from what I've seen. I know the plaster damage is bad, but this is an amazing old building with beautiful archetecture, and I can't bear the thought that it might be left to fully rot away.
That's another issue, the attachment to neighboring buildings when one has a leaking roof and is in major deterioration. The plaster damage, celing caving in etc is indicative of a lot of water getting in the walls from the roof, and it's mostly trapped in there.

mt999999 said:
Maybe I'm trying to jump into this too fast, and maybe I'll get in over my head, but I think it is still saveable..
As long as the foundation and brick walls are solid, in plumb and in good condition it's certainly saveable. The big killer besides cost, is if the leaking rain from the roof soaks into the top and upper brick walls and starts freezing, then you have major trouble!

mt999999 said:
I'm sure the electrical, plumbing, and all will need work. One of the first things that I would do would be to tar and patch the roof.
I have a feeling all of those will need more than work, closer to replacement with in-code materials and practices. I don't know how stringent your buildings dept is there, but here the city said no permits were needed for renovation/remodelling as long as it's not a structural change, or a change in use i.e. taking the commercially zoned building and making it a residence.
Here, you can get a building permit for $5, I added a new studio room on my house in 2006 and all they required was a rough sketch of the property the room plan, and $5
You certainly could do most of the grunt work yourself, and even if they are stringent, you can do the work and have a licensed pro go over it and check it for a fee, just keep to the code or better, and get every book you can on the particular systems so you can learn the correct practices, techniques,tools to use, materials to use etc and you can't wrong.

mt999999 said:
If the rafters are too bad, they could be sprayed for mold/mildew and piggy-backed to new rafters for extra support. The sheathing is probably rotted too.
I have a nasty feeling that won't be allowed, besides, the original rafters and floor joists are typically inserted into a pocket in the brick walls at each end, likely the wood in those pockets is rotted and piggy-backing a new board alongside the old will still rely 100% on the integrity of the old wood in the pockets. You can bet the roof deck is rotted where the leaks are.
This is why roofs are so important to keep maintained, the smallest leak can cause big trouble.
The floor in my kitchen- the kitchen was originally a back porch resting on foot square 8 foot long logs that looked like they were once massive supports salvaged from a commercial building, they were laid directly on some flat rocks on the ground and their centers and bottom were basically all rot.
The floor had a 6" tilt to it across the width, the other end of the joists rested on a 2x4 simply nailed to the concrete block foundation wall.
I wound up digging the whole area out, putting in footings, drainage, block walls up, and replacing all the joists with new because the old ones were salvaged junk, some were nothing more than 2x6 and some were 3x12 and every other odd size you can think of, and they had splits and rot.

mt999999 said:
One thing, I must qoute www.oldhouseguy.com in saying, never, ever, ever, replace historical wooden windows. If this building is ever mine, those will be restored with new glazing, wood putty/epoxy, and paint. New windows would kill the look of the building.
I disagree with that guy, IF the building is a historic designated landmark, or it had unusual curved glass windows, stained glass, bevelled glass, was built by George Washington etc then the originals should be saved, but for the most part those old wood windows were simply purchased off the shelf from a supplier, the old version of Menards in a way. Those drafty loose windows were put in back in the day when coal was $5 a ton or less and they didn't care how much heat went out.

With as many windows as there are there, and the cost for heat these days, and the fact the brick has an almost zero R value, every bit you can do will be a massive help on heating and cooling costs. There are modern replacement windows that look appropriate and have dual pane argon low E glass, and not cost too much.
I replaced all the windows on my 1930 house and it made a huge difference I could measure. My kitchen is where my desk is, it has 3 large windows- about 5' square for the largest (2 double hung set side by side) with the original windows here, in the winter I would actually get ICE on the glass inside, and the glass itself was so cold it set up a convection current that felt like a draft.
I HAD to have a 1500 watt space heater in the room on me all the time because it was so cold.Once I replaced those 3 windows, the first winter I found I didn't need that space heater AT ALL, I found my electric bill dropped by about $35 a month. That winter I saved enough on the electric to cover the cost for one of the windows! I no longer feel a cold draft, ice does not form on the inside of the glass any more.
They don't have stock windows that fit my openings for height, they were close though and I was able to fit them in well.

This is a vinyl window on my new studio room addition, I trimmed around them (replaced all the old ones) with the same style as the original windows, as you can see, it all looks appropriate to the style of the 1930 house, I even sided the room with new clapboard I made sized the same as the originals. As a bonus the window comes in white, and white trim is what I always used on the house, so it was perfect.
The side boards, header and sill are all treated lumber, most of the originals on the house had bad rot. These windows were about $135 each, double glass, argon, low E and with a screen included, I love them!




That is the reality, you can be historic to a "tee" but things like windows will cost you a lot of money for heat/ ac, and lack of comfort.
The rest of my house has R100 attic insulation and R25 in the walls and it's comfortable.
I had added more insulation to the walls by adding a second wall inside as the plaster and lath were in poor condition, on the interior of all exterior walls I screwed 2x2 strips to the wall studs with long screws, filled that 2" space with celotex, a vapor sheet over that,1/2" plywood and 1/2" sheetrock. I used ply in there so I can hang heavy things on the wall and not have to bother finding studs for anchors.


mt999999 said:
I'd try to save the Plaster and Lathe, but I'm sure the exterior walls would need gutted for plumbing/electrical, and I am willing to be there is little to no insulation in any exterior walls, or even the roof.
If you need to gut the exterior wall plaster/lath to the brick, I would certainly use that opportunity to put insulation in there! It would save a lot of money in heat/ac.
There is at least one contractor I know of who does plaster/lath walls, but this is largely a lost art and it's very expensive and a lot of hand labor involved. You would certainly have to replace with standard sheetrock, but even with this, there's opportunities to give it a texture with sheetrock mud, trowels, stiff brush etc so it's no so flat and smooth.
I used a wallpaper paste brush and sheetrock mud to texture with- moving the brush in rows of semi-circular fan patterns like the old ceiling had in many places.
 
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#127 ·
Hello guys - don't mean to 'intrude' on this thread but I followed it earlier as I found both of your comments interesting and well-worth reading; same for the pics.

@mt99999; that's a lovely little house and I'm curious about it's age. Looking at the design of the downstairs front windows (small panes above, larger panes below), over here it would be about 1880's/1890's. Would that be about right, or am I way out!?
 
#129 ·
Hello guys - don't mean to 'intrude' on this thread but I followed it earlier as I found both of your comments interesting and well-worth reading; same for the pics.

@mt99999; that's a lovely little house and I'm curious about it's age. Looking at the design of the downstairs front windows (small panes above, larger panes below), over here it would be about 1880's/1890's. Would that be about right, or am I way out!?
No problem Tony! When it was listed with a realty company many moons ago, the listing stated 1920. I believe this to be inaccurate, considering that the first floor kitchen and bathroom appear to be a 1920's addition. If you look at the attic above the kitchen, you can see original wooden siding that indicates that the kitchen didn't used to be there. Plus, the 2-over-2 windows in the kitchen and bathroom appear from a different time period, and the wall between the kitchen and the rest of the first floor is significantly thicker than the other walls.

The front porch with the 4-over-1 windows is an addition that I would imagine to be around the time of the kitchen considering the original front door added on the enclosed porch that I found, and the windows. Plus, the original siding is visible behind the porch drywall. You can see the opening I cut into one room where I was accurate that a window was once there, with the original siding cut around it. It is currently sided in asbestos siding that I plan on caulking and patching, then painting. Under the porch, you can see where the stone wall would have originally come, and it was cut back. The original porch posts are being used as support posts for the front of the house now, LOL. There is a coal room under half of the porch.

I believe the house was an old colonial, with evidence of a fireplace on either side of the house, and the four 12X15 rooms, the living room and bedrooms, were the only original part of the house. There is evidence of an old single-pass steam boiler with a pipe coming out of the floor by the chimney in each main room. I have a thread on this site in HVAC about the current furnace in this house. The fact that the woodwork was installed, and THEN plaster and lathe was added, says something to the old age of the place. To get to the point... my guess, with other minor evidence, is that the original portion of this house was built in the late 1800's, with a kitchen and bath added in the 1920's. What do you think, RWolf?
 
#2 ·
What kind of price is the owner looking for for the building?

I bought mine, 20x96 brick with full basement for $15k, and like this one you detailed- mine is right off the city square in a prime high traffic location.

If you look at the National Trust for Historic Preservation site, you might find some ideas and also see what others have done with similar near abandoned falling apart buildings. Their magazine is real good and comes as a membership premium.
The membership cost is $15/year and that includes their magazine.

http://www.preservationnation.org

You might browse this section for adaptive reuse;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/adaptive-reuse/


Now you'll really be surprised, check out this hotel, it's almost a dead ringer for the corner building you detailed;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/...resurrection-of-las-boyle-hotel/#.UQW34uiR2S4



How Architect Robert Verrier Saved More than 150 Places with Historic Tax Credits

FAIA, NCARB For more than 30 years, historic preservation tax incentives have been helping architects, builders, and private citizens transform historic buildings for new uses, preserving architectural heritage, and benefiting communities all over the country.
 
#4 · (Edited)
What kind of price is the owner looking for for the building?

I bought mine, 20x96 brick with full basement for $15k, and like this one you detailed- mine is right off the city square in a prime high traffic location.

If you look at the National Trust for Historic Preservation site, you might find some ideas and also see what others have done with similar near abandoned falling apart buildings. Their magazine is real good and comes as a membership premium.
The membership cost is $15/year and that includes their magazine.

http://www.preservationnation.org

You might browse this section for adaptive reuse;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/adaptive-reuse/


Now you'll really be surprised, check out this hotel, it's almost a dead ringer for the corner building you detailed;

http://blog.preservationnation.org/...resurrection-of-las-boyle-hotel/#.UQW34uiR2S4


How Architect Robert Verrier Saved More than 150 Places with Historic Tax Credits

FAIA, NCARB For more than 30 years, historic preservation tax incentives have been helping architects, builders, and private citizens transform historic buildings for new uses, preserving architectural heritage, and benefiting communities all over the country.
He is currently asking $23,000, but I would offer lower. Needs SO much work. It WAS up at $60,000 a few years back. It's been on the market a long time. It also has a full basement, connected with the basement of the building next door also. Yours was the studio from 1910 that I commented on, correct? This one (I want to say mine) is 1892.

http://www.russellrealty.com/p/259/3365601?posc=4&post=20&&cfq=radarea%3D4%26startnewsearch%3D1%26zipcode%255B%255D%3D43920%26pricemax%3D25000%26bedmore%3D1%26bath_thre%3D1%26vtycount%3D2%26restype%3D1%26limit%3D10%26SRSearchDate%3D1359342026%26SRRecordCount%3D20%26SRPage%3D1%26SRPageCount%3D2%26SRPageLinks%3D6

The National Trust website said $20 for a membership, they must have upped it. I will think about it. The picture of that hotel does look similar. I will check out those other two links in a bit here. I initially thought it would make a nice bed and breakfast, and I would have fun running it. However, there is no market for it around here. The Sturgis house in town would take any competition. East Liverpool used to be the pottery capital of the world, but then it all moved to China. No tourist attractions around here except for the world's largest tea kettle in Chester, WV right next door. It's like what happened to Steubenville after the steel mills closed. Such a shame.

www.sturgishouse.com
 
#3 ·
Whew boy, I have alot to reply to... Where to start...

Well, I don't know what I'd do with the Lowe Building. Could become apartments later on. If you saw the exterior picture, you'd see that it has had the fourth floor added on years later with different colored brick for whatever reason. I'm sure that one has massive leakage, based on the third floor having a squishy floor with trash barels collecting rain water. Knocking off the upper floor is beyond my ability, so I would have to temporarily seal off the roof with plasic tarps (Tricky for a flat roof) and make sure there was proper drainage to prevent further damage until the roof could be fully replaced. The main store front area of the building would be a good money maker if it were rented out, because only one corner has minor water damage by the storefront window. Other than that, that area is spotless and modern. Not to mention a great location right on the Diamond. I would seal off the upstairs, and save it for another day, or year.
The brick appers solid. As previously stated, the historical society didn't do the greatest job on photographing the thing. Most of the time, they didn't know which floor/building they were in. I knew more from "context clues" of the pictures. Did I menion I am obsessed with the building? I have pin-pointed where almost every picture is on the exterior based on minor flaws with the windows.

Also, as previously mentioned, this is East Liverpool. Doesn't mean much to out of town people, but around here everyone knows the laws are usually loose. Everything is crumbling. I mentioned the old Sherwin Williams building in the old post in electrical. I have seen pictures of our old Woolworth store, and I have looked in storefront windows. Beautiful tin ceiling rotted to nothing nearly, pigeon waste everywhere. The upstairs is scary rotted, not to mention the pigeons inhabiting it. Holes in the ceiling, mushy floor boards. Called the Exchange building, that one is certainly done for. It won't last much longer. Or, I could be wrong earlier, and the building laws are tighter, so buildings are abandoned. But I doubt that. They let everything go to pot, scum-lords everywhere. I know how to flux and solder copper piping, and I also know PVC, and I have some knowledge on electrical. Regardless, in this potentially 11,000 square foot building, the idea still kind of scares me.
Even if rules dont allow the rafters to be piggy-backed, who will know if it is coverd by drywall? I usually believe by the code, but if it is solid and safe, I won't loose any sleep over it. There isn't any real attic to speak of regardless. Now, if the rafters are set into the brick... well... lets just hope they are in decent-enough shape. Maybe another pocket could be made alongside? Again, it might be a beaking or selling point for anything that I am not sure of. When I tour the place, most of my questions will be answered. I'm sure I could patch and tar a flat roof, but what would your idea be for a qoute on redoing the entire thing? There are a few roof shots from neighboring buildings on the first page of pictures. Minus a few bubbles, the roof doesn't look too bad from what I can see. Hopefully most of the third floor front turret room (where the ceiling is all but entirely missing) is damage from runoff from the Lowe building. The old plaster could be removed, and the lathe could have dry wall nailed over it, keeping it at correct historical thickness. That would make patching the main roof easier. The tiny attic/fourth floor above that front room must be pretty bad regardless. Couldn't find any pictures inside, might be accessable from the fourth floor tower? Pictures show old tar running onto the yellow painted trim, but I am just going to assume it hasn't been painted in a LONG time. The 1970's/80's photo shows it might be the same paint from back then. However, some of the yellow pointed trim pieces at the roof level appear to be a newer-painted lighter yellow color.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/Thompson%20Building.htm
I would like to have it put on the list of historical landmarks one day. Each window has a stained glass panel above it, and I like the look of the main aged glass panels. Storm windows are an option, but it would cover the stained glass, and those wouldn't look as nice. I have heard of interior storm windows, but I don't know about those. Plastic sheating can be put up on the inside for winter, but it doesn't look too pretty from the inside point of view. The third floor windows looked fogged when I walked past it the other day. I'm glad, because it must be atleast somewhat heated. I saw a pictue of a huge possible gas-converted boiler in the cellar. I would think about new wooden windows, but those are expensive and don't last as long as the old ones. Not to mention how expensive special-made windows would be for these large old openings. I like the look of the old ones too. Vinyl windows kill me, they look cheap to me. But, to each his own. I would be on a tight budget anyway, and that many new windows might not be feasable. I think replacing the windows would void the tax credit for restoring old buildings as well. Some of our old windows ice up on cold days inside too. Not pleasant. Thick curtains would help. I think weatherstriping them would seriously help the draft, though. These windows seem decent, but if they were totally trashed, I could definately see replacing them.
How many square feet is your house, and what did the insulation for your walls cost? How about the ceiling? I'd like to get a general idea on what it sells for. I have read up on the National Park Service about platering over lath, and it certainly looks like something for a skilled tradesman. However, I think I could handle patching the plaster on an interior wall to original thickness, as long as the hole isn't too bad. I am sure you could put a plastic vapor barrier over the bare brick once it is gutted, for waterproofing any moisture coming from the brick. Or, the vapor barrier could be put over the insulation like you said. I like the plywood idea, it would bring drywall to proper historical plaster thickness, thus leaving no gaps around adjacent walls. Or, you could re-use the lath in place of the plywood, then drywall. Our house has a brick wall, then 1/2-1 inch furring strips (lathe thickness) attached to it, with early gypsum plaster board attached to the furring. Ours was built in the late 1920's. I certainly hope this building isn't like that, because it would leave virtually no room for insulation.
 
#5 ·
I did see the pics, the 4th floor was obviously added on, there could be 2 reasons why- there could have been fire damage on the original 4th floor that damaged the brick enough it was all replaced, or they just added another floor on for more space.
I would say adding on is more likely.
At first I thought East Liverpool was referring to the UK, but found it was not the UK.
The Lowe building might be past doing much with, and I think you have a greater fondness for the corner building. That added on 4th floor just ruins the Lowe, I wouldn't say that one was really worth the cost to restore, any money spend is betetr put on the better corner building, and if there was a way to just buy that one independent of Lowe that would be good.

" Knocking off the upper floor is beyond my ability, so I would have to temporarily seal off the roof with plasic tarps (Tricky for a flat roof) and make sure there was proper drainage to prevent further damage until the roof could be fully replaced. "

You'd be surprised, it wouldn't take more than a crowbar, and in NYC that's how they demolished entire buildings like these in the 1970's and 1980's - a crew of 5-6 guys with 4' crowbars take down a floor a day, the bricks were cleaned and sold, the rest has to be hauled away and you would then have to build a new roof deck.
You and a friend could do it, but it would be a real chore and you'd need to get the new deck money and the new deck in quickly to avoid being hit too many times by rain storms with no roof.

" Vinyl windows kill me, they look cheap to me. But, to each his own. I would be on a tight budget anyway, and that many new windows might not be feasable. "

It depends on the brand/style, but the budget is the biggest factor and one that will dictate how much you can replace and with how high a quality.

" I think replacing the windows would void the tax credit for restoring old buildings as well. "

I'm not sure on that, though there is tax credits for replacing old windows with energy efficient ones, my local utility I think offers $50 or $100 per window (or did a while back) but they require a licensed contractor do the work as well as replace the ENTIRE window not just the sash, and so the cost to hire a contractor to do something you can easily do yourself completely kills that rebate or tax credit.
A big issue with saving old wood windows is rot, 2 of them in my kitchen were so bad the previous owner had nailed them shut, the glass was falling out even and the best I could do initially was caulk it real good while trying to find a suitable replacement that fit. As it turned out the closest I could find was2 pella double hung aluminum clad wood windows, they were the right height but 2" too wide together.
I wound up making them fit because the same windows 1" narrower were "custom sized" and going to cost over $450 instead of $159 each.

"How many square feet is your house, and what did the insulation for your walls cost? How about the ceiling? I'd like to get a general idea on what it sells for."

It's about 1,000 sq ft, the original exterior walls have blown-in cellulose insulation put in around 1970s, what I added was 2" of Celotex board, I don't rememebr what it cost and google now seems to pull up nothing but UK results for some reason. You can find it at any home improvement place, Menards, Lowes etc take some time and go browse prices on various items to get an idea of cost. Celotex has the highest R value, but styrofoam is a close second and you can use that instead. I buy 1" styrofoam sheets for packing, and it's around $6.99 a sheet or so at Menards, 2" might be around $12 or close to it.

"However, I think I could handle patching the plaster on an interior wall to original thickness, as long as the hole isn't too bad."

Plastering walls is tricky, it's more of an art than skill

I am sure you could put a plastic vapor barrier over the bare brick once it is gutted, for waterproofing any moisture coming from the brick. Or, the vapor barrier could be put over the insulation like you said."

You also need to be carefull not to trap moisture in the walls, you would probably not want the plastic against the brick, normally the plastic goes right under the sheetrock over the insulation and the interior of the wall is vented up into the attic by the nature of it's construction. As long as the mortar is tight the brick should not transmit moisture into the wall interior, the main moisture comes from the heated rooms, kitchen, bath etc.

"I like the plywood idea, it would bring drywall to proper historical plaster thickness, thus leaving no gaps around adjacent walls. Or, you could re-use the lath in place of the plywood, then drywall. Our house has a brick wall, then 1/2-1 inch furring strips (lathe thickness) attached to it, with early gypsum plaster board attached to the furring. "

I'm wondering if those furring strips are even sold any more, it might be a case of having to make your own.
 
#7 ·
I did see the pics, the 4th floor was obviously added on, there could be 2 reasons why- there could have been fire damage on the original 4th floor that damaged the brick enough it was all replaced, or they just added another floor on for more space.
I would say adding on is more likely.
At first I thought East Liverpool was referring to the UK, but found it was not the UK.
The Lowe building might be past doing much with, and I think you have a greater fondness for the corner building. That added on 4th floor just ruins the Lowe, I wouldn't say that one was really worth the cost to restore, any money spend is betetr put on the better corner building, and if there was a way to just buy that one independent of Lowe that would be good.

" Knocking off the upper floor is beyond my ability, so I would have to temporarily seal off the roof with plasic tarps (Tricky for a flat roof) and make sure there was proper drainage to prevent further damage until the roof could be fully replaced. "

You'd be surprised, it wouldn't take more than a crowbar, and in NYC that's how they demolished entire buildings like these in the 1970's and 1980's - a crew of 5-6 guys with 4' crowbars take down a floor a day, the bricks were cleaned and sold, the rest has to be hauled away and you would then have to build a new roof deck.
You and a friend could do it, but it would be a real chore and you'd need to get the new deck money and the new deck in quickly to avoid being hit too many times by rain storms with no roof.

" Vinyl windows kill me, they look cheap to me. But, to each his own. I would be on a tight budget anyway, and that many new windows might not be feasable. "

It depends on the brand/style, but the budget is the biggest factor and one that will dictate how much you can replace and with how high a quality.

" I think replacing the windows would void the tax credit for restoring old buildings as well. "

I'm not sure on that, though there is tax credits for replacing old windows with energy efficient ones, my local utility I think offers $50 or $100 per window (or did a while back) but they require a licensed contractor do the work as well as replace the ENTIRE window not just the sash, and so the cost to hire a contractor to do something you can easily do yourself completely kills that rebate or tax credit.
A big issue with saving old wood windows is rot, 2 of them in my kitchen were so bad the previous owner had nailed them shut, the glass was falling out even and the best I could do initially was caulk it real good while trying to find a suitable replacement that fit. As it turned out the closest I could find was2 pella double hung aluminum clad wood windows, they were the right height but 2" too wide together.
I wound up making them fit because the same windows 1" narrower were "custom sized" and going to cost over $450 instead of $159 each.

"How many square feet is your house, and what did the insulation for your walls cost? How about the ceiling? I'd like to get a general idea on what it sells for."

It's about 1,000 sq ft, the original exterior walls have blown-in cellulose insulation put in around 1970s, what I added was 2" of Celotex board, I don't rememebr what it cost and google now seems to pull up nothing but UK results for some reason. You can find it at any home improvement place, Menards, Lowes etc take some time and go browse prices on various items to get an idea of cost. Celotex has the highest R value, but styrofoam is a close second and you can use that instead. I buy 1" styrofoam sheets for packing, and it's around $6.99 a sheet or so at Menards, 2" might be around $12 or close to it.

"However, I think I could handle patching the plaster on an interior wall to original thickness, as long as the hole isn't too bad."

Plastering walls is tricky, it's more of an art than skill

I am sure you could put a plastic vapor barrier over the bare brick once it is gutted, for waterproofing any moisture coming from the brick. Or, the vapor barrier could be put over the insulation like you said."

You also need to be carefull not to trap moisture in the walls, you would probably not want the plastic against the brick, normally the plastic goes right under the sheetrock over the insulation and the interior of the wall is vented up into the attic by the nature of it's construction. As long as the mortar is tight the brick should not transmit moisture into the wall interior, the main moisture comes from the heated rooms, kitchen, bath etc.

"I like the plywood idea, it would bring drywall to proper historical plaster thickness, thus leaving no gaps around adjacent walls. Or, you could re-use the lath in place of the plywood, then drywall. Our house has a brick wall, then 1/2-1 inch furring strips (lathe thickness) attached to it, with early gypsum plaster board attached to the furring. "

I'm wondering if those furring strips are even sold any more, it might be a case of having to make your own.
There have been many fires in this building's history, worst of which was the Diamond fire of 1968. Somehow skipped this building and the Lowe building. Destroyed a huge building two down on the right where it started. Destroyed the upper two floors of the pants shop next to the Lowe building, skipped over the corner building, and ravished the top two floors of the building on the other side of the corner building. Very strange concidence, or just thick brick firewalls on the corner building. The old picture at the top of the historical society's page was from the turn of the century. You can see fancy brickwork at the top of the Lowe Building, and it is only three floors. Must have been an add-on. Honestly, the red bricks on the Lowe building aren't in too good of shape. If I owned it, and decided to keep it all, I might just patch partially-missing bricks and paint the whole Lowe building with red brick paint, all four floors with a roller, trying to avoid the mortar inbetween the brick. Might have interesting results?

East liverpool is certainly in Ohio. It was originally Liverpool, named for Liverpool, England. Alot of skilled potters moved here from England, for the clay-filled soils. The name was changed to East Liverpool, because there was once a Liverpool in western Ohio. Saved confusion, I guess. Whole industry started going down the tubes in the mid 60's or so. The widening of Route 30 that knocked out the first three streets in the late 70's certainly didn't help either. All that is left is Homer Laughlin and Hall China Potteries.

I also like the look of wooden windows on the inside of the house, as well. If it were a portion that was to be rented as apartments, I wouldn't really have as much of an issue with it. All windows should match from the outside though. Plus, alot of vinyl cracks and fades in 20-30 years, then they need to be bought all over again. These old wood windows last forever, it seems. What would be a bugger would be to get matching sashes for those few third floor windows that are boarded up. Sashes might still be upstairs, they could have just been too lazy to put a new glass pane in. One tax credit website I was reading stated that you couldn't replace the windows or the credit would be void. However, I understand that the energy company might offer a credit for new windows. The old house guy might have something going when he says that it takes years upon years to recoupe the savings from new, expensive windows as opposed to weatherstripped old wood windows. With storm windows added, of course.

Did you use batts insulation for your ceiling? I wonder what that stuff runs for. Good point about traping moisture, I didn't think of that. The furring strips are literally the same width and thickness of strips of lathe, except laid sideways. I assumed that they used lathe leftover from the walls in our current house, but I found out that the interior walls were all made using early gypsum boards plastered on, as opposed to lathe and plaster. They still sell lathe strips, don't they? I certainly hope there are fullsized 2 by 6's in the walls (or whatever size they use), as opposed to furring strips, again for the difficulties in insulating in a very small area.
 
#9 ·
"There have been many fires in this building's history, worst of which was the Diamond fire of 1968. "

My building had a fire in the basement near the furnace logn ago, they had to replace joists, the foor in the rear and ceiling panels, which is why the tin design in the rear 1/4 differs from the rest, I would guess it happened before 1930s and tin ceilings were still standard and easy to get, but the specific design was no longer available or they didn't bother to match it.

"if I owned it, and decided to keep it all, I might just patch partially-missing bricks and paint the whole Lowe building with red brick paint, all four floors with a roller, trying to avoid the mortar inbetween the brick. Might have interesting results?"

You can use used brick to replace, I would never suggest painting the brick, it's a huge mistake and one you'll regret if you keep the building long enough, or one the next owner will use your name in vane with a few choice 4 letter words.
As you may imagine, repairing brick walls is an art too, it's not easy tuck pointing or replacing damaged brick and making it look good. An amazing fellow here completely restored a 1 story brick facade (was originally a 4 story building) that has unique stone face textured, dark brick, but the bricks were literally falling out of the wall. He spent all summer, fall and winter on this carefully repairing, replacing and restoring, when he was done it was gorgeous! You can't tell where he made repairs or used newer bricks because he hand chiseled them to look like the originals, just amazing work.


"I also like the look of wooden windows on the inside of the house, as well."

Because my walls are thicker and redone, I had to retrim the windows inside, I used oak.

" All windows should match from the outside though. Plus, alot of vinyl cracks and fades in 20-30 years, then they need to be bought all over again. These old wood windows last forever, it seems. "

Well, as long as you keep them caulked and painted, and for this that means scaffolding to reach- the wood windows are ok, but if they aren't kept in constant repair water sheets down the glass and soaks right into the wood sash holding the glass in, that old window glazers putty only lasts a couple of years before it cracks, shrinks and deteriorates, and that is why a lot of old windows rot, the putty goes bad and the water sheets right off the glass into the wood and soaks in. The vinyl may crack in 20 or 30 years but you don't have all that maintenance.

"The old house guy might have something going when he says that it takes years upon years to recoupe the savings from new, expensive windows as opposed to weatherstripped old wood windows. With storm windows added, of course."

My house had all storm windows over windows that had their upper and lower sashes replaced in the 70s, they were ugly. The windows never would stay put- they used that vinyl friction track on the sides. I realized an immediate savings I positively saw on my electric bill, about $35/mo. The old house guy is a purist for one thing, and another issue is he is likely talking about those very expensive top of the line windows AND having a contractor install them which is going to cost hundreds of dollars per window on top.
Then yeah, it's expensive and if you only plan as most do these days- to live in your present house for 5 more years it doesn't make sense to spend the money.
OTH I've lived in my house 15 years, I'm not moving anywhere. I put the 13 windows in myself at a cost of under $2000 total, I know positively the savings on my electric bill is $35/mo and the amount saved on the gas is unknown, my monthly budget payments decreased. Even using just the $35 figure alone and only for winter heating season, that covers the cost for one window each winter, minimum. It would take a maximum of 13 years to pay for all the windows in electric savings. I'd say it's closer to 7 years since it's easier to cool now as well, ONE 5200 btu window a/c comfortably cools my house even during the hot humid Iowa summers.

"Did you use batts insulation for your ceiling? I wonder what that stuff runs for."

No, the attic had blown in cellulose put in around the mid 70's best as I figured, I went to the local lumber yard and bought a number of bags of it and used their blowing machine to blow that all in. It is about 35" deep in the attic, roughly R100 I calculated.
Insulation is not bad price wise, and it's a one time expense, check at Menards and see.

" They still sell lathe strips, don't they? I certainly hope there are fullsized 2 by 6's in the walls (or whatever size they use), as opposed to furring strips, again for the difficulties in insulating in a very small area."

I don't think they do, plaster and lath walls went out of style around the 1950s or 1960s when sheetrock became so easy to get and install, lath is a relic of the days when you hired a plasterer to do your ceilings and wall, and they used oil based paint because that's all that was available. I had a devil of a time finding flat white oil paint, no one carries it any more, but Rustoleum still makes it and I got some at Menards, like plaster gone to sheetrock, oil paint has all gone to latex.
 
#10 ·
That building your friend re-did sounds amazing, but I don't think I have the skill or time to do such a thing. As you said earlier, the corner building is one I am going after. I am not really worried about the Lowe building. I would never, ever; not in a million years paint the corner (J.C. Thompson) building. However, it sounded like a quick-and-cheap alternative to repairing a building I am not nearly as interested in. There is no other method I know to make the bricks match. Also, I doubt any future owners (from this area) would care much about that building. It's more of an after thought. As you can see from the four pictures I attached (Think I did it right), the brick isn't too pretty on the Lowe building. I'm sure you've seen worse though. Someone didn't do a very good repointing job on the bulding either. You can also see a newly broken window (fourth floor, bottom right) on the Lowe building. I went past it, and took these pictures, as well as several Thompson (corner) building pictures. If I owned the buildings, I would worry about the Lowe building bricks later on. I'll share some of the Thompson building pictures in a bit... they really show how bad the woodwork, especially around windows, is decaying.

Yes, I agree, if they are maintained. I am a hard worker, and I would enjoy maintaining them. Call me an oddball if you would, but I would go around and carefully restore every window. I have done glazing before, and if you paint if after it dries, the glazing shrinks less and lasts longer. They sell a silicone-type alternative to traditional DAP 33 Glazing as well. I would keep the windows, at least at first. Replacing might come as an after-thought years later. If the surface is prepped properly, the paint should last a good decade or so. I also agree, that storm windows are usually ugly. However, the good quality new ones (Sometimes 150 dollars or so) are more weather-tight and less ugly than old ones.

That's great on the air-conditioner. I don't think this building has any A/C in it, but I am still not sure what that large box-fan type thing is on the one roof photoshot from the Historical Society. I aquired a 6000 BTU window A/C unit from a friend recently. Interesting story on it, he got it in the late 70's when he was a cab driver. Man had to go to his storage unit and didn't have enough money for a cab ride, so he gave him an A/C unit from the storage unit as fare. The unit has been in his attic since. He never tried it, but I cleaned it out and put a new filter in it; it fired right up with nearly ice-cold air. I'm sure it would never cover much of this building, though.

I don't know if this lathe in the link below is made to original proportions, but it is all that I could find in my area. However, I did not check the old local hardware store in my town. Don't forget the period when gypsum plaster board was installed as the base coat, with brown and finish coats to original specifications. Our house has a very early example of it, and the house that my grandfather built in the 1940's also has it. I guess drywall (or sheetrock) started becameing popularized in the 60's-70's era. What were you getting oil-based paint for? I searched our local Walmart (although I hate that store, but that is for a different forum) up and down for oil-based paint, but all they had was the expensive rustoleum. Not practial for anything more than trim. Oil-based paint is good for exterior windows and trim for more durability, but you need to paint over it with more oil-based when it wears. Latex tends to peel when applied to old oil-based, unless it is de-glossed or sanded.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=3978-199-5860&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3458944&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1#BVRRWidgetID
 

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#11 ·
I also forgot to mention that, with camera in hand, I stopped by the law firm next to the old Sherwin Williams paint building; the firm now owns both buildings. They slated the Williams building for demolition. I asked for a tour to take pictures, but the lady seemed adamant on her answer that the Historical Society has already taken plenty of pictures. Oh well, it was worth a shot.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Yeah they did a lousy pointing job, the mortar is too white and sloppy, but then again they probably got the job they paid for.
Those fire escapes are another potential problem with the Lowe building, these have a tendency to corrode where the supports go into the brick facade, and they need to be constantly painted to keep corrosion at bay, replacing, removing or repairing these fire escapes is not cheap, and I wouldn't consider it a DIY job either!

Just FYI, I don't know what your budget is, but first let me tell you that since this is going thru a real estate agent, I doubt the owner will come down much from $22,500 or whatever it was, because he will have to pay a percentage out of that to the agent, I'm gussing it might be 10%, and then there's closing costs and pro-rated real estate taxes due on his part too.
I would say at best that's the price you would get it for, you could offer $21,000 and see what he says, but any less than that and I don't really see him coming down much more, certainly not enough to write home about.

On my building I had $5,000 cash so that's what I put down on it, what my bank did was a 5 year loan with a balloon payment, I wasn't thrilled by that but it was what they had. The scheduled payments are around $89/mo (I cover insurance and taxes separately) I asked about and confirmed there was no prepayment penalty, so I decided to pay $200/mo
for the 5 year terms and have it completely paid off before the $7,000 or so balloon payment would even come into play as it would if I only paid the $89/mo.
Because its commercial property thigns work differently, you may find the same kind of terms and your monthly payment might be around $125 on say $15,000 with a balloon payment later.

So you might think on this, if you have say $3,000 to $5,000 to put down, and can handle the $125/mo payment, it's within reach to get started.
Only you know if you can financially handle the costs for materials, the $1400 taxes, and have the time and all to first patch the roof and then clear out the debris, clean up everything, cover any broken out windows and start inspecting everything to see what has to be replaced.

Before signing anything I'd do a complete top to bottom check of everything- including going up on that closed up 4th floor, all the way down to the basement. The furnace may be toast or beyond reasonable life and need replacement, ditto for the hot water heater, you may have to redo all of the electrical wiring down to the circuit breakers.

You'll have your work cut out for you, but if this is your dream, then sit down and figure out your budget- how much you can afford, costs, time, abilities, and write it all down on paper. Then you have to decide to eother move forward on it, or just totally forget it and move on.

The fact there's more than one building involved is going to make this ten times harder and ten times more expensive than you think, if it was me, I would try to get JUST the corner building alone and forget about the Lowe and the other, the corner building by itself is going to run you a considerable amount in materials alone, this isn't a one story building like mine, estimate the repairs for one floor and multiply by at least 4 and see what number you come up with.
That Preservation article on the hotel that is similar to that corner building indicated they spent $30 million restoring it, mind you they did a huge number on it, but keep in mind how easy it will be to figure on $50,000 costs and then turn around months later and find that barely does 1/4 of the work needed when you start tearing into walls and discovering other issues, or that costs are more than expected and budgeted for.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but I know how these things go, and I can tell you that you'll think you have a good handle on what you estimate the cost will be, and you'll find it was way off once you get entrenched in.
Costs for all building materials has increased a lot in the last few years, it will go higher now due to demands for rebuilding thousands of homes after hurricane Sandy.

Offer the guy like, $15k for the corner building and see what he says.
 
#15 ·
old buildings will look new if repainted and make some enhancement outside and inside the structure.
The problem with painting brick is the paint doesnt last, you now take a permanent material like brick and cover it with cheap temporary paint that cracks, peels and looks like garbage within 3-5 years. Removing paint off a brick facade is very time consuming and expensive, it either has to be sandblasted (damages the brick) water blasted, or chemically removed.
All the preservation groups etc will tell you NEVER paint brick walls, clean them if the brick is dirty but never start the lark of painting them.

Painting 4 floors of bricks just to cover the fact the top floor used a different color brick is just way out there. That top floor is toast anyway due to the roof leaks, it should probably be removed and put back as the 3 story building it was designed to be.
 
#16 ·
Before I nodd off here, I'd like your opinion. Look at the page below, it was of the 1968 diamond fire. You can see the now-enclosed staircase in one of the last pictures from the back portion of the building. Doesn't it look like the Thompson and Lowe buildings were painted white at the time? Just strikes me as odd, compared to the color of the bricks around them. I'll check for your responce tomorrow.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/diafire68.htm
 
#17 ·
Doesn't it look like the Thompson and Lowe buildings were painted white at the time? Just strikes me as odd, compared to the color of the bricks around them. I'll check for your responce tomorrow.

http://www.eastliverpoolhistoricalsociety.org/diafire68.htm

It does appear to be painted white, though I've seen anomalies in old photos with fading and color shifts (especially instamatic prints whose blue skies turns a cloudy day beige) so it can be difficult to look at the one color photo and say positively one way or another. If they were painted, then some time after 1968 someone had to have gone to the expensive of having it all REMOVED which also seems unlikely.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I also doubted that the buildings had been painted, but the other brick buildings looked normal in the old photo. The bricks look old and worn on both buildings, without much visible mortar as I recall on the corner Thompson building, so I had thought it was possible that the paint had been sandblasted off. However, the Thompson building seems more intact than the Lowe building. Also note the three windows together, one is boarded-up. Looks like the bricks are white above those three, doesn't it? They sell a paint called "Rhino Shield" now. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, but the sales pitch on their website seems hard to beat. Check it out with the link below, and tell me what you think of it. Seems pretty cool, but Lord only knows what the price tag will be.
http://www.rhinoshield.net/
Could the mortar be fixed to blend in better on the Lowe building? Would it require too much work? Also, I wonder how hard it would be to find replacement bricks for the Lowe building. Another possibility would be to attach a thin facade (fake brick?) to the front of the Lowe building to hide the damaged brick. Looking at the first picture of it that I attached, the bricks on the first storefront level look bad in the top left corner. I assumed that the visible water damage inside the left storefront window (See the paint peelings hanging down) was from water leakage clean down from the damaged roof. I have close ups posted. There is minor damage on the right side, mostly brown, dried, water droplets. However, the pictures of the second floor just above it don’t seem to have much of any water damage, unless the water just ran down through the wall. (See the ghost-busting video on youtube.com, link below) The video, ignoring most of the commentary, has some interesting shots that aren’t on the website. I believe the first set of the interior shots are the second floor of the Lowe building, which the website doesn’t really show. The room directly above the damage is not shown, but the room next to it is, @7:03 minutes into the video; or I could be wrong on that location. I had never thought that the water could have come in from those badly-damaged bricks. Or, perhaps, as you had stated, deterioration of the fire escapes above. The fire escapes don’t seem that difficult to remove, but then again, I have never seen someone remove them. How exactly, are they anchored? Are they illegal to remove, without replacing? If the top floor were taken off, the fire escape would look incomplete, and I would assume the best bet would be to remove the rest of it entirely. Must bring in some money as scrap metal, anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvhJiP25y9Q
It is listed for $22,900 at the moment. What are the benefits of paying insurance and property taxes separately? I assumed it would be easier to pay them all together, but I am obviously new to this home buying thing. If I bought the building, I am sure I could patch the roof then tar it myself, afford dumpster rental for the first summer to gut out old, damaged walls and pitch debris, and then have the time to clean the place top to bottom. I don’t know what it would cost to replicate the missing woodwork outside, but I would like to get that done the first summer as well, then paint it all with a fresh coat; preferably oil-based. The old paint is most likely oil-based. I am sure that the woodwork pieces that are still there could be molded to make cheap yet matching replacements. You will see a few close ups of damaged woodwork that I got yesterday below with the Lowe pictures. The fourth floor attic turret is pictured, and in the worst shape. The wood work is better on the third floor turret, and even better on the second floor. Some of the old woodwork could be replicated with a steady hand and a router. All of the exterior windows need glazed/puttied and primered/repainted; possibly epoxied before they are primered/repainted as well. I think I could take a router and make permanent weather-stripping on the windows to seal out drafts. There are a few "interior" windows that can be worried about later. After all of that, and possibly a good cleaning for the bricks, the exterior of the building would look almost as good as new; better than it has in years. I would also have to rip out old carpets, strip old wallpaper, etc…

Once it was gutted, cleaned, windows repaired, and roof sealed, the rest would come at a much slower pace. I do plan on inspecting the place very well before hand, as you suggested. People have told me that I have an eye for detail, too. I would try to get an idea on the materials needed, to see if I could afford it. I have experience in fluxing and soldering copper pipes, some electrical/HVAC experience, but minimal drywall/sheetrock experience. I’m sure the wallboard couldn’t be that difficult to get the hang of, though. Don’t know if you saw the picture of the furnace, on the 6th page (I think), but that boiler looked OLD. It didn’t appear that this specific furnace was ever coal powered though, looked to be gas from the beginning. The only water-heater that I saw was on the third page, and it appeared very old as well, and disconnected. It was sitting in the hallway. The Lowe building and the main storefront for the Thompson building (Liberty Tax) appear to have individual, new, gas powered, forced air furnaces in them. I’d assume the boiler covers most of the upstairs. Not sure if there are seperate ones for the two buildings, but I hope so.

It has been my dream for a long time to own and repair a building like this one. I wouldn't know where to begin on the budget if I didn't get at least one good inspection. Most things don't seem too expensive, but I'm sure it will all add up. All the insulation will certianly add up for all exterior-facing areas on a building this big. What would you suggest as the best insulation for walls? How about the upper-most ceilings? I don't know what romex or electrical wires run for price-wise. If the electrical is upgraded in the kitchen, laundry, and utility/HVAC areas, that should take alot of the load off the old knob-and-tube, and I think it could handle living and bedding areas, as well as lighting certainly. I'd say new electrical to any and all window air units, probably on individual circuits as well. I think PVC would be a decent replacement for rotted copper/galvanized/cast iron drainpipes. Leaking copper joints could be re-soldered. Good plasterboard only runs for 8 dollars or so per 4' by 8' sheets, but I'm sure that will add up too.

There are two total buildings involved, the Lowe building and the Thompson building, just to clairfy. The back portion of the Thompson building is where the old Electrical Panel Thread started out, that is part of the corner building for certain. If you saw the old Fire Insurance map on page two of pictures, you'd see that the Thompson building is an L-shape, because of the back portion. The upstairs area of the back portion would make at least two apartments, considering that it is seperate from the main part of the corner building. Did that other guy on the old forum have anything going when he said that it would be strict rules to re-issue occupancy permits? I'm sure every area varies, but it shouldn't be too bad, I wouldn't think. Do all areas even require occupancy permits, or are those just for dilapatated/rehabilitated buildings? The tricky thing about the Lowe building is that it is connected on most of the upper floors. If I only bought the Thompson building, those areas would all have to be bricked up or just covered over, not quite sure how close the buildings were connected. (See the last attached picture) I'm sure the connected basements would simply be a matter of cinder-bricking the wall up between the two.

Don't forget that the higher the floor, the worse the damage. The second floor wasn't too bad as seen on the first page of pictures, but that God-awful green was painted on all the woodwork. That was just a cosmetic issue, though. Third floor is completely trashed. The store fronts look like they could be rented out (You'd be lucky to make $300-500 in this area, there is not a high demand), and there is minimal damage on the lower levels, no water damage in the Thompson building that low. Basments were part of the dry goods store that started out there in 1892, so they have some interesting tin ceilings and woodwork, but most of the tin is rusted out down there. The cellar is nicer than most are, though. I won't even begin to take any action on it until the spring rolls around. I think the owners brother owns the mens store next to the Lowe building, so it shouldn't be hard to contact them. I will think about just offering for the corner building, but I don't know if they'd only sell the one. Plus, if the Lowe building continues to deteroriate, it could cause damage to the Thompson building just from water run-off. What would it cost to remove a floor of bricks, assuming a construction company came in and took off the top floor of the Lowe building? It would be awesome if someone would do it, and just take all the bricks to be reused as payment.
 

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#20 ·
That looks pretty shot, abused, neglected, possibly frozen at least once and that's all it takes!
I am amazed the gas meter is directly next to this, that seems like a dangerous spot to put a meter!

If it's about 750,000 BTU, you can figure that's about what they originally figured it would take to heat the building, but you don't know know to what comfort level they allowed for 75 degrees or 60 degrees.
Assuming it's about 55% efficient as someone suggested, maybe a modern more efficient unit maybe 500,000 BTU getting at least 90% would be close.
Rememebr too, the all brick uninsulated building has an R value of single digits, if the attic space is insulated and the exterior walls are, and if the windows had double glass it would substantially reduce what's need to heat. If you have to remove/repair the insides of the exterior walls ANYWAY, thats when you can fit insulation in there for little more than the materials cost, and that would be well worth it!

Just Googling for an example to get an idea of cost, I found:
Dunkirk D248A600A20 D248 Commercial Series Electronic Ignition, Gas Fired, Steam Boiler, Taco Pump, 80% - 600,000 BTU


  • Steam System
  • Natural Gas
  • Cast Iron Heat Exchanger
  • Vertical Vented
Price: $6,789.99


That's just for the boiler unit, no installation, chimney, piping or radiator/repair/replacement if needed.


So You are looking at at least $10,000 for a unit like that to get it to the basement, set in place, and a start on the distribution systems.
That's not a whole lot but that one system alone is half the cost of what the owner is trying to sell the building for.
Other options might be looking at zone heat/cool rather than central, by this I mean each "apartment" or whatever has their own unit which they control, and which runs on THEIR electric and gas bill, while you can do with a much smaller unit that would cover any public space such as the hallways etc.
Still, you would have to buy those units and install them, and buying say 4 of those or however many are needed, likely would cost about the same outlay as the one boiler in the basement, though maybe you can buy and put those in when an apartment is rented.
 
#21 · (Edited)
That looks pretty shot, abused, neglected, possibly frozen at least once and that's all it takes!
I am amazed the gas meter is directly next to this, that seems like a dangerous spot to put a meter!

If it's about 750,000 BTU, you can figure that's about what they originally figured it would take to heat the building, but you don't know know to what comfort level they allowed for 75 degrees or 60 degrees.
Assuming it's about 55% efficient as someone suggested, maybe a modern more efficient unit maybe 500,000 BTU getting at least 90% would be close.
Rememebr too, the all brick uninsulated building has an R value of single digits, if the attic space is insulated and the exterior walls are, and if the windows had double glass it would substantially reduce what's need to heat. If you have to remove/repair the insides of the exterior walls ANYWAY, thats when you can fit insulation in there for little more than the materials cost, and that would be well worth it!

Just Googling for an example to get an idea of cost, I found:
Dunkirk D248A600A20 D248 Commercial Series Electronic Ignition, Gas Fired, Steam Boiler, Taco Pump, 80% - 600,000 BTU


  • Steam System
  • Natural Gas
  • Cast Iron Heat Exchanger
  • Vertical Vented
Price: $6,789.99


That's just for the boiler unit, no installation, chimney, piping or radiator/repair/replacement if needed.


So You are looking at at least $10,000 for a unit like that to get it to the basement, set in place, and a start on the distribution systems.
That's not a whole lot but that one system alone is half the cost of what the owner is trying to sell the building for.
Other options might be looking at zone heat/cool rather than central, by this I mean each "apartment" or whatever has their own unit which they control, and which runs on THEIR electric and gas bill, while you can do with a much smaller unit that would cover any public space such as the hallways etc.
Still, you would have to buy those units and install them, and buying say 4 of those or however many are needed, likely would cost about the same outlay as the one boiler in the basement, though maybe you can buy and put those in when an apartment is rented.
It just hit me... it is possible that the ancient boiler is in the basement of the Lowe building, and it might only heat the Lowe building. Just another possibility; the basements are connected on the two buildings. Not to mention, most of the interior shots of the Lowe building have a radiator in them. Not sure how many, if any, rooms of the Thompson building have radiators in them. Hopefully the boiler only covers the Lowe building. If so, I probably wouldn't even worry about replacing it for years to come. Might make some cash on scrap metal, one day.

Did you see my last long post from the other day, with the six pictures I took of old woodwork and the Lowe building storefront? The one with the white on the bricks above the windows always confused me, that's why I assumed it may have been painted and blasted off.
 
#23 ·
Could the mortar be fixed to blend in better on the Lowe building? Would it require too much work? Also, I wonder how hard it would be to find replacement bricks for the Lowe building. Another possibility would be to attach a thin facade (fake brick?) to the front of the Lowe building to hide the damaged brick. [/QUOTE]

Mortaring to that degree is more art than anything, it's a skill you can learn but one that takes years to master. The problem is every cement and sand differs in color a little depending on where it's from, it will also vary in color depending on the ratio of sand to cement, and what you might add to it like lime. You can add tints to the mix too, but it has to be the right color, and mixed exactly the same every batch.
I would never suggest adhering a veneer of brick over the existing, fake or otherwise. If you really REALLY feel the need to do something to blend it in more, I don't know, maybe you can paint just the top floor to a color that's matched up by a pro to what's below it, but adhering stuff to the brick facade 4 floors above the sidewalk is a real bad idea and it too won't perfectly blend either, not in texture or color.


I assumed that the visible water damage inside the left storefront window (See the paint peelings hanging down) was from water leakage clean down from the damaged roof.
The water is running down inside the wall cavities then and exiting there, it's still saturated everything above, yet there's enough water left after doing that- to wind up inside the ground floor store windows.


What are the benefits of paying insurance and property taxes separately?
You get to choose your OWN insurance co and policy, deductables etc and you have more control over your monthly cost if something bad happens with income. If it's your house and you are paying $250/mo for the loan and insurance is another $75/mo on top, and taxes another $100, if your income dropped suddenly you pay that $250 mortgage so you have a roof over your head, the insurance can go bye bye and the taxes are only due usually once a year and won't go into default for months or more after it's due.
If you pay the bank for all that, it might cost more, and your monthly payment for it all goes to them, in this example say $425/mo you'd better pay that $450 each month or you go into default real fast. Far easier to get $250 and say screw the insurance, work out something on the taxes and still have a roof over your head.
Not all lenders will allow this, it may depend on the size of the loan.
In MY case, the taxes on the building are $1,000 but I sent in the required one page form for the not-for-pofit exemption since it's a non profit project. Even the county assessor had to query another (larger) county because she had never run into this before now, but Iowa state code specifies what is allowed as exempt, and it states that privately owned art galleries, open to the public, non for profit use is included.
You won't have that luxury on your project unless you were planning to convert it's present use/occupancy to one that is non profit.


I am sure I could patch the roof then tar it myself, afford dumpster rental for the first summer to
All doable, I might even be able to do something for you on the woodwork for a fee.
You would not need to use oil paint, I only used oil paint on the ceiling in my building because it's tin (pressed steel) and even though it's been painted before, people making the mistake of painting these ceiling with latex (water based paint) discover in about 2 years that the moisture in the paint apparantly migrated thru the paint into the steel and caused corrosion, and all the paint starts peeling off.
Oil paint is a real pain to paint ceilings and things with, stick with a good brand/quality latex. I happen to like the Hardware Hank house brand, it's very good quality, very thick bodied and covers well.


Once it was gutted, cleaned, windows repaired, and roof sealed, the rest would come at a much slower pace.
You may find it of help to find a class this summer maybe at a nearby college or something similar, check if they have some kind of general community non-credit type class (open to everyone regardless of age/schooling) to gain some basic home repairs skills, you may find some that are specialty with a narrower focus like carpentry and roofing together, plumbing and electric together, so it may require more than one class to get broad coverage.
You'll need plumbing, electrical, carpentry, masonry, roofing, insulating or energy efficiency, some trades will overlap a bit- plumbing and that boiler's piping, rough carpentry and installing finished floors, masonry and plastering or sheetrock.
You certainly can do the WORK yourself, but with the extensive scope of what you need to do, plus the fact you may be remodelling this into residences for the public- you will certainly need permits and inspections, you can get the permits you need, you would likely need to pay a licensed guy to check out your work, an electrician to deal with the incoming lines and circuit panels etc

The other issue that come to mind on this- most places have some sort of time limit on work completion of this sort, now, it might be in your area that as long as the visible exterior looks good, they won't care too much how long the interior work takes, but the permit(s) may only be good for a year or 6 months, and you may have to renew it /them (if they allow you to, some may not)
I have read of remodelling projects where the owners dragged it on and on and on and the city finally ordered the place demolished as a safety hazzard and eyesore, so the very best FIRST thing you'd want to do aside from patching the leaks in the roof is get the exterior work completed ASAP- all the missing wood elements replaced, everything caulked and painted, glass and windows repaired or replaced as you see fit.
You can rent or borrow a rolling scaffolding, you'll need it!
Once you have the exterior looking good and the roof has stopped leaking, I'm pretty sure you can take your time on the interior a bit.


but that boiler looked OLD. It didn’t appear that this specific furnace was ever coal powered
That boiler almost certainly replaced the original one from the 1800s when the building was built, it's almost a sure bet they burned coal, and there would be (have been) a coal bunker under one of the sidewalks, or a shute in the sidewalk near the wall leading to a storage area in the basement. Most likely it's been covered over by new sidewalks. Gas heating did not come into widespread use until the last half of the 20th century, it's relatively new, coal however was plentiful, cheap, put out lots of heat, and it was what I used for heat in the 1980s in New York City, you could still have coal delivered there. The old boilers that burned coal also had some automatic feeders on them in larger buildings.

appear to have individual, new, gas powered, forced air furnaces in them.
That verifies what I thought- that if there WERE 2 boilers and you only saw one, that the other one must be as defunct since you saw individual forced air gas furnaces.

It has been my dream for a long time to own and repair a building like this one.
I only wish your dream building was just one building and a bit smaller!
Yeah, where to begin on the budget... true, on the surface most materials are not too bad price wise, you can get sheets of CDX plywood for things like flooring and the roof deck for around $15 a sheet, that's cheap enough, but my 20x42' gallery floor in the front- it took 5 sheets to span the width, and 5 rows of them to reach 40', that's 25 sheets plus 2 more to cover the 20' x 2' spot. 27 sheets of 5/8" CDX all of which I had to haul in my car via 3 trips to Menards 35 miles away (local lumber place wanted almost twice that price and they didn't have 5/8") that was about $450 there. The oak parque tile flooring I planned to get at Menards that was always around a buck a sq foot I figured $900 for the tile to cover the floor- they no longer CARRY the tile and the cheapest elsewhere is closer to $3 a foot and up now.
Every dollar the floor covering costs higher is another $900 on top of what I PLANNED to spend.
You'll find water and sewer pipe is pretty cheap, it's the valves and fittings that they rake you over the coals with on price. You might pay $6.99 for a 10' piece of PVC pipe, then find the shutoff valves for the sink are $14.99 EACH, and the elbows are $4.99 each and so on. You can buy a new toilet for around $100 at Menards, cheap enough if you only need one, but if you need 8, plus 8 $20 toilet seats, plus 8 $14.99 shut of valves, well, you can see how they add up in a hurry.

Roofing, the same thing, you see the price might be $125 a square (10x10') for shingles and that doesn't seem bad, untill you do the measurements and find you need to cover 30 squares worth of roof, plus all the flashing, vents etc (haul it all up 4 flights and put it all in)
 
#28 ·
"Now is the time to start learning if you are truly serious about owning these 2 buildings, if there's no local 4-8 week public classes at a University or equiv in your area to learn basic carpentry/construction, plumbing/electric/roofing/flooring etc then you'd be wise to take a trip to the library or to Amazon.com and start picking up some how-to books so you have at least that much behind you to refer to. Yes, I know, before anyone says something about learning to do complex systems from a book- at least it's something to refer to, would usually include basic information on acceptable/normal/standard practices and methods etc. The electrical book will give you ideas on what kind/size wiring you would need, how high up from the floor wall switches have to be, outlets etc. It's all good reference material and basics, but the grunt work, dealing with things not in the book to guide you, and all the rest you'll have to learn by doing!"
I don't know if there are any classes, but that would be helpful to reinforce any experience I might have. I have a few basic books, but I will look into finding some more. I have learned alot just from some Youtube videos, plus from my step-father with various home improvement projects over the years. He has a background in Plumbing, HVAC, and some experience in electrical. I wouldn't go to the point of installing extra electrical outlets, if the current outlet's electrical boxes are installed properly, assuming there are more than one per room. I have been in several old victorican homes with one outlet per bedroom. They probably started out with 60 amp service too. I am usually a more hands-on person.

Don't mind my slow-ness here, I have alot more to respond to. I'm taking my time :)
 
#24 ·
I think PVC would be a decent replacement for rotted copper/galvanized/cast iron drainpipes. Leaking copper joints could be re-soldered. Good plasterboard only runs for 8 dollars or so per 4' by 8' sheets, but I'm sure that will add up too.
Cast iron doesn't usually go bad unless it's hit by something and cracked, otherwise PVC works fine for drainpipes, personally I never use plastic pipes for water. Copper can be soldered but it has to be CLEAN to bright metal and fluxed, it also can't have water in the pipe when soldering, even small amounts act like a major heat-sink.


Did that other guy on the old forum have anything going when he said that it would be strict rules to re-issue occupancy permits? I'm sure every area varies, but it shouldn't be too bad, I wouldn't think. Do all areas even require occupancy permits, or are those just for dilapatated/rehabilitated buildings?
I don't know what other guy on what forum... but as far as occupancy permits, I can't say for sure, but I am 99% certain you DO need one in some form for any building that is to be occupied as a dwelling, or where the public will access. I am sure there are variances in fees and requirements, but I have no doubt some kind of formal official sanction is required by the county along with zoning rules be met.
In a city like New York City, the Dept of Buildings issues (or used to) an actual little sign with the building's registration number on it and it was required to be installed in a certain location.
If you change the building from what it is now zoned as, to something else, you'll certainly have to do paperwork and all for a variance. It would be more stringent and harder to do if you are converting a commercial building to residences.

The tricky thing about the Lowe building is that it is connected on most of the upper floors. If I only bought the Thompson building, those areas would all have to be bricked up or just covered over, not quite sure how close the buildings were connected. (See the last attached picture) I'm sure the connected basements would simply be a matter of cinder-bricking the wall up between the two.
Personally I'd rather brick up a few doorways than deal with two buildings, and actually, I am sure those buildings were originally separate and later had holes punched thru the walls. Cement block is easy to work with, and the blocks are typically cheap, last time I bought some was last spring and I think they were around $1.25 each.
"What would it cost to remove a floor of bricks, assuming a construction company came in and took off the top floor of the Lowe building? It would be awesome if someone would do it, and just take all the bricks to be reused as payment.
Quite a bit I imagine, but since you likely have to replace at least portions of the roof otherwise, if the roof is to be replaced because rafters are rotted and the deck is too (likely) then there's only the brick to remove. It would be a big job neverthe less, and I doubt you will find anyone willing to do the job for the bricks. The bricks are worth something, but used brick is as common as grass, they even sell used brick by the pallet on Ebay, for around $1 a brick or even a lot less, cleaned and ready to go.
It would be a demolition company who would do that kind of work usually.

It certainly WOULD be awesome if you can find someone to do it for the bricks, but George Washington's slaves didn't hand press those bricks, so they aren't worth more than about a buck a piece for whole unbroken ones, some people use them as pavers and in the garden.

All the insulation will certianly add up for all exterior-facing areas on a building this big. What would you suggest as the best insulation for walls? How about the upper-most ceilings?
It shouldn't be too bad, you can get rolls of it, I would say probably for this the standard spun glass wood insulation in rolls, it tends to fill irregular spaces a lot better than rigid insulation boards. Your interior walls would have used real 2x4 lumber, it's been my experience in NYC they used that on the inside of exterior walls too- leaving about a 4" cavity, but that may not be typical of all areas, and you might even find they attached thin cleats to the brick and lathe/plaster on that, leaving only a very small gap.
If there's 4" I'd certainly fill it up, the 3-1/2" thick stuff would work, more is better but you want to avoid compressing it to fit, also, your code may require a certain amount like 6", if so that can be done simply by adding to the existing 2x4's to make the cavity deeper.
The ceiling on the top floor is almost certainly going to have a cockloft between it and the roof rafters, you can use the roll insulation, batts, or blown in insulation which is usually easier and quicker. You can do that yourself, and where you get the bags of blow-in insulation they usually have a machine to use free if you buy X number of bags. Getting the machine up 4 flights of stairs I don't know...
The roof must be water tight before you put in ANY insulation anywhere, or the insulation will suck up water like a sponge and be ruined.

I don't know what romex or electrical wires run for price-wise. If the electrical is upgraded in the kitchen, laundry, and utility/HVAC areas, that should take alot of the load off the old knob-and-tube, and I think it could handle living and bedding areas, as well as lighting certainly.
Oh you are in for sticker shock there, the price of copper has skyrocketed, as a result all romex and copper wire has dramatically increased. I bought 3 rolls, 500' each of the THHN #12 copper wire on Ebay and got the best price by a lot of shopping around.
Menards has it here for $60 a roll + 8% sales tax, but Menards is a 60 mile drive, I found my black and white wire for $68 each brand new unopened, shipped to my door.
Knowing I didn't need as much green ground wire I found a partially used roll on ebay with still 475 feet on it for $34, with postage it was about $40.
I bought the 2 boxes of wire nuts I needed on Amazon for less than I could get them at the local hardware store.
The #8 romex I needed for my kiln was $3 a foot, the receptacle was $17.

You'll definitely want to shop Menards, Lowes, or Home Depot, as well as Amazon.com and Ebay. You can buy almost anything on Amazon and Ebay, including electrical, plumbing, construction materials, appliances, flooring, and even roofing.
 
#26 ·
You'll definitely want to shop Menards, Lowes, or Home Depot, as well as Amazon.com and Ebay. You can buy almost anything on Amazon and Ebay, including electrical, plumbing, construction materials, appliances, flooring, and even roofing.
Could also price local supply houses sometimes you will be surprised. My local supply house is usually cheaper than any of the big box stores.
 
#25 ·
One thing I find with old buildings is once you find it is worth saving and you are going to go ahead with it. The best thing you can do is invest in a complete rehab of the roof. Then you will be able to work inside without worrying about further damage.
 
#30 ·
#39 · (Edited)
As I had mentioned earlier, I looked up the white roof coating. I posted a link here for you. Don't know how many five gallon drums a roof like this one will require, but it has great reviews. $72.50 per 5 gal. seems like a good deal for a leak-free enegry efficient roof guarenteed for 7 years.

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-M...=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#specifications

Also, for $73/5 ga. is a very similar product with similar reviews. If the roof were first patched, then this was applied, I think it would make for a great roof over the corner building. Now, the Lowe building... probably too far gone.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...d=-1&keyword=white+roof+coating&storeId=10051
 
#42 ·
As I had mentioned earlier, I looked up the white roof coating. I posted a link here for you. Don't know how many five gallon drums a roof like this one will require, but it has great reviews. $72.50 per 5 gal. seems like a good deal for a leak-free enegry efficient roof guarenteed for 7 years.

Yeah but notice that all of the reviews there only rave about how the temperature in the rooms below has decreased- it is a result of applying this white colored material over a black roof, that's what this stuff does best- helps lower the temperature in the attic and rooms below by reflecting the hot sun light instead of absorbing it as black does.

It cant hurt, but dont expect this stuff to plug up cracks and holes so the rain won't come in, it's far too thin to fill any holes.
For your purposes I guess it will buy you time, me, I'd rather fix the my roof right the first time and not dink around with the cost and labor of patching and coating that has to come off again in a year or two.
 
#41 ·
And where you mentioned about the sprinkler in the other building you lived in; I can’t believe they let it run for 10 hours! That must have trashed the building. How high up did you live in the building? Bet the landlord was mad. Or did you own it?
Brooklyn, yeah, it wasn't like anyone had a choice, the story goes- the landlord I rented my space from had bought the place dirt cheap at a city auction, and then rented spaces out advertised as live-in work-in artist or mixed use raw space. He put in a minor amount of work with new bathrooms but they were only framed with studs and outfitted with a toilet, sink and metal shower.
You were to make it livable and provide you own heat if you wanted more.
I rented the top 2 floors in one building (it was 3-4 interconnected buildings) 25'x100' and 25'x50' roughly, for $550/mo. I moved out of the above pictured building to there because my rent had gone from $331 to $656 a month when the lease ended. My main day job at the time paid $5/hour and I worked a full time job and 3-4 part time jobs for a time.

So in that building I had the 2 top floors, floor 4 and 5, the lady below me on the 3rd had a dance studio there and put in a brand new floor 25'x100', the 2nd floor was another guy's place he was fixing up and the ground floor was a storage garage.

What we learned soon enough was the landlord we rented from soon vanished when the city, buildings dept and fire dept started issuing violation notices for hundreds of violations- everything from a wall in one building that was cracked vertically and actually leaning out of plumb, to non functional fire sprinklers, elevator doors with no safety switches/open elevator shaft, no lights in the stairs, floor joists in one building rotted from the wall and falling in and braced with temporary shoring by the tenant, roof leaks etc etc plus not having approval, variances or occupancy permits for residential use of a commercial building.
We further learned he leased the building to another guy, who was a contractor who started some work to appease the violations and get time extensions.
He repaired the whole sprinkler system and got it functional again which was the biggest major violation, but he got in over his head and quit!
Months went by, no landlord, nothing, then we soon discovered the original guy had simply turned the electric on before he rented the spaces out.
The power company one day discovered none of the buildings even had a METER, and that all the power was coming in directly from the street unmetered, so they shut all the power off after demanding the landlord who had already vanished- pay the estimated $35,000 bill then due.
The city foreclosed on the property since the jerk didn't make payments any more, or taxes, and the power was off which meant my elevator was non functional too.
It was shortly after that, some time in January 1984 that it got down near zero for a week and while I was at work the main riser for the sprinker system that passed along the exposed exterior wall in my loft's top floor- froze solid and cracked in half. I didn't know that untill I came home from my Saturday night shift and went to bed, and was awakened by ice cold water dripping on my face around 10 am, and when I was completely awake I hear a big bang upstairs followed by the unmistakable sound of rushing water, and all of a sudden all this water started pouring down from the ceiling like niagara falls.
By the time I got to the back of the place where the stairs were and looked up, I was standing in 2" of water and the water looked like an open fire hydrant on full blast.

I opened my back stairs door and the front elevator shaft door to let the water run out, and it cascaded down to the street in the back, and started filling the basement up from the shaft.
Because the sprinkler system worked, it sent an alarm to the fire dept around the corner and they sent a hook and ladder truck out.

They told me that the amount of water pouring out actually caused a severe pressure drop for the entire block. Since I also agreed to be the building's superintendent and make minor repairs, collect rents etc for the first landlord for $100/mo off the rent, I still had some authority with the other tenants and all, and when the firemen were looking for the shutoff valve I had them break the door in to the garage/storage space as I knew there were no shutoff valves upstairs.
That was when we discovered the guy who repaired the sprinklers had replaced a broken valve near the ceiling with a piece of straight pipe!
About then, a crew from the city water works dept came out and they looked around and found no valve either, and they said that they would have to bring out a crew in the morning and dig up the street to shut it off out there, and that if they do that the water will STAY off.

I noticed a grate on the garage floor and looked in with a flashlight and could see there was an open space under there, so I pulled that up and discovered the water mains and valves under there, the firemen went down to turn the valve off but it hadn't been closed in decades, it took four firemen to shut the valve off!

The system had 200 psi behind it and was originally a pressurized dry system with a special valve that kept the water on one side via air pressure out of the pipes due to their going into unheated areas, but the contractor guy bypassed that and made the system a wet system because the wet/dry valve was defective and it was going to cost thousands of dollars to replace it.

So the water was on about 12 hours I guess before it finally got shut off, of course it totally flooded my place, the danmce studio below me- their new $10,000 floor was totally ruined, the garage/storage on the ground floor had pallets full of newstand magazines- all ruined, the water was 4 feet deep in the basement and also migrated over into the other buildings to some degree.
A business in one of the buildings had bags and bags full of powdered latex and ingredients, all paper sacks, all wet.
In my place everything was soaked and I didn't even have dry clothes, one of the downstairs neighbors who used his space for thigns like teeshirt decal transfers etc loaned me his dry overcoat and I slept that night on a door laid flat over 2 cement blocks in my place.

Now that the fire dept, water dept and others had become involved, it attracted the attention of the city buildings dept and fire headquarters, and a couple of days later I came home from work to find a vacate order from the city and fire dept taped to the building's front door.

Well, us tenants got together and said HELL NO we won't go! and we tore the thing off the door and went about our business.
The city moves slow and it was weeks before anyone did any kind of followup and we all tried negotiating and working with some guy in the city offices, but it was going to be a losing proposition due to all the code and other violations, now a non functional fire sprinkler, use of the commercially zoned building for residential, so I wound up moving out of the city entirely soon after.

There's a whole other story for another time about how I was able to run the building's freight elevator up and down 5 floors without electric so I could move all my stuff out.
See if you can figure out how I might have run an electric freight elevator up and down 5 floors in a building without electric, I think you'll be very surprised. I was 22 at the time, and certainly did not work in the elevator field.
 
#43 ·
There is alot of this building to go around. If all goes well, I'd love to live over part of the main portion as my main residence. Unless there are asbestos floor tiles put in at a later date, this building is pretty well before the era of asbestos, so that really isn't much to be worried about. I would cover over old asbestos floor tiles with new linoleum in any rental area. I would want windows in my residence to be stripped/sanded to original wood and refinished, but I would likely just repaint windows in a rental, unless they were so caked with paint that they would not open. Regardless, I would get any lead/asbestos removal done before any type of inspection on a rental area.

The man you posted about ought to have done renovations before renting out those units... unless the people were already living in them. In that case, asbestos is best left alone unless in damaged/dangerous condition. Even a little ducttape as cover-up would have been a better solution than what he did. If it is in good shape, why would you want to get rid of it? It is an amazing insulator, and it certainly is irreplacable once gone.

Well, you seem to have much more experience than me, so I might just take your word on the white sealant. Are those prices I qouted for you ($72-$73) much more than those of a five gallon drum of tar? They said the white stuff could be painted right over old tar; so, if affordable, the roof could be tarred after being patched, then painted with a coat of the white stuff simply for energy efficiency. The reviews said that it keeps their whole house cooler, and I'd imagine the white coating would also help keep the tar from expanding/contracting and cracking as much in high heat because it reflects the sun. I also saw a pricy coating with a 50 year warranty (bellow). $2000 + is alot, but it comes to a total of 25 gallons to coat a commercial roof.
http://www.bigpaintstore.com/gac-gr...c-gr1600c-5g&gclid=CIzorvqenrUCFQSf4AodI2cASw
I couldn't find much on those new peel and stick roofs, but check out the link bellow. Don't know if this would go well over the current tarpaper roof, but people said it was sturdy enough to replace rusted out floor panels in their cars. Maybe it would even seal the Lowe building roof if done carefully. Tell me what you think about it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_154017-81326-PS625_4294934297__?productId=1018733&Ntt=peel+and+stick&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dpeel%2Band%2Bstick&facetInfo=

So, basically, first install new flashings that are not thin aluminum around the chimney INTO a worn mortar joint like the original one, then repoint the chimney bricks is what you are telling me? Even if that were done, it still couldn't hurt to run a seam of tar or roofing cement along the joint where the flashing is covered, just for an extra good seal. If the original flashings aren't in too bad of shape, it looks like that peel and seal could be used to cover them better than roofing cement for a watertight seal.

So, for the plumbing, just always follow new codes. As previously stated, you can learn an awful lot from just a few youtube.com videos. If the system still works and doesn't leak, I would just leave it alone if it is grandfathered. I'm sure I could get away with replacing a few rotted chrome u-pipes, though, if that is the only real issue. I'm going to have to sit down here and follow up on the local codes to get the hang of them soon.

Do you ever wonder what became of that second building that you told me about? Sounds like it had some serious issues. If the landlord was still gone after they tried to evicted everyone, it probably went abandoned and could have even been torn down by now. I hate slumlords like that... so, who did you pay rent to after the landlord vanished? Free rent sounds fun. Who even kept up with paying the oil bills for the boilers after he left? Now for the elevator... hmm... did you get in the elevator shaft and run the cables manually? Weight the elevator down? I have absolutely no clue, but I am eagar to know now.
 
#44 ·
mt999999;1109798 Unless there are asbestos floor tiles put in at a later date said:
Asbestos has been in use for longer than that building is old, it was used extensively for steam pipe coverings- that white plastery powdery stuff encased in a cardboard-like sleave covering steam pipes and valves. Then they started adding it to mortar and concrete, floor tile, roofing. Asbestos building materials have been used in U.S. construction since the 1800s. Asbestos building materials were cheap, strong, and durable.

Although the link between asbestos and serious health problems was known for centuries, the construction industry continued to use asbestos building materials in most homes, schools and commercial buildings prior to 1975.

asbestos was used in office buildings, public buildings and schools. It insulated hot water heating systems, and was put into walls and ceilings as insulation against fire and sound. Asbestos has also been widely used in transportation and electrical appliances, frequently mixed with, and encased in, other materials.
Asbestos has also been found in many products around the house. It has been used in clapboard; shingles and felt for roofing; exterior siding; pipe and boiler covering; compounds and cement, such as caulk, putty, roof patching, furnace cement and driveway coating; wallboard; textured and latex paints; acoustical ceiling tiles and plaster; vinyl floor tiles; appliance wiring; hair dryers; irons and ironing board pads; flame-resistant aprons and electric blankets; and clay pottery. Loose-fill vermiculite insulation may contain traces of “amphibole” asbestos.


The man you posted about ought to have done renovations before renting out those units... unless the people were already living in them. In that case, asbestos is best left alone unless in damaged/dangerous condition. Even a little ducttape as cover-up would have been a better solution than what he did. If it is in good shape, why would you want to get rid of it? It is an amazing insulator, and it certainly is irreplacable once gone.
The man was a crook to begin with, there's a lot he ought to have done, but then crooks and con artists don't follow the laws anyway. That was a 19 story building, he just didn't want to bother removing the asbestos properly, so he willingly exposed all the workers, people living there, and the public to unknown quantities of asbestos he had yanked out and thrown into the dumpsters.
The use of asbestos in buildings was the biggest mistake people ever made, and what's worse- the W.R. Grace Company's mine in Libby Mt that they used for decades to mine vermiculite rock to make home insulation from- they KNEW for years their mine was contaminated by high amounts of the worst form of asbestos there is, and they sent their workers into the mine with no respirators or anything. Millions of tons of the stuff was shipped all across the country- contaminating every port of entry where the railcars unloaded. There are millions of homes and businesses that have their contaminated vermiculite insulation in their attics.
They contaminated the town by the mine, the water, air, land, mine workers brought it home in their dust filled work clothes in large quantities, and their homes became contaminated by that too.

When the lawsuits started, they simpy filed for bankruptcy, and then reorganized as a new company and popped back into business again leaving the town, Govt and everyone else holding the bag for the cancers, contamination, and their mine which is a federal toxic superfund site.


Are those prices I qouted for you ($72-$73) much more than those of a five gallon drum of tar? They said the white stuff could be painted right over old tar; so, if affordable, the roof could be tarred after being patched, then painted with a coat of the white stuff simply for energy efficiency.
Probably close, a little higher maybe.


I couldn't find much on those new peel and stick roofs, but check out the link bellow. Don't know if this would go well over the current tarpaper roof,
That appears to be a flashing substitute, I don't hold very high of an opinion on self stick things.
So, basically, first install new flashings that are not thin aluminum around the chimney INTO a worn mortar joint like the original one, then repoint the chimney bricks is what you are telling me?
Yes

If the original flashings aren't in too bad of shape, it looks like that peel and seal could be used to cover them better than roofing cement for a watertight seal.
If you are going to go down that route, I would not use that stuff, you might just as well run a bead of silicone caulk around the top of the flashing.


Do you ever wonder what became of that second building that you told me about? Sounds like it had some serious issues. If the landlord was still gone after they tried to evicted everyone, it probably went abandoned and could have even been torn down by now. I hate slumlords like that... so, who did you pay rent to after the landlord vanished? Free rent sounds fun. Who even kept up with paying the oil bills for the boilers after he left?
I don't need to wonder, it's still there in Google Street view, and the front building that was originally a 5 story freezer which was the one with the cracked wall and the rotted joists- now has several windows in that wall, and it appears it is occupied.
The rear building facing the back street that I was in is still there but difficult to tell what might be in it, the top floor wall which had a dangerous looking bulge in it is still holding up. We paid no one any rent for probably a year. The building's boiler was shot, there was no heat supplied, we all supplied our own.


Now for the elevator... hmm... did you get in the elevator shaft and run the cables manually? Weight the elevator down? I have absolutely no clue, but I am eagar to know now.
I remembered reading an old NYC building code book from 1901 several years before, and where it described the requirements for elevators. It wanted the elevator car to be counterweighted to a 60% load so that when the average load of passengers were on the elevator the car and the counterweight would be approximately balanced, leaving little work for the motor. So I realized an empty elevator made more work for the motor to lift than one with a load of passengers to 60% of the rated maximum capacity.
The elevator's capacity was about 3000# so I knew if I loaded it up with 1800# it would be about balanced, but if I added more weight it would be heavier than the counter weight.
Since I knew the motor had coil spring activated brakes on the drum which the electric would disengage when the car moved, I knew all I had to do was pry the brake shoes away from the drum with a crow bar and I could make the car move up or down.
The motor room was in a room on the roof of my top floor, so that was 2 flights of stairs to get up there and down 7 flights to the ground.
So I loaded the car up and then pried the brakes off the drum, and the car started slowly down the shaft, emphasis on slow- it probably took 10 minutes to get to the ground floor and then I had to just eyeball through the grating to estimate when the floor of the car was close to even with the floor of the hallway and it wasnt easy since it was trying to judge this from 7 floors up looking down a narrow open grate thru a dark shaft.
The first few times it was a foot or more off, but I set a flashlight on the floor to help guide things better.
Once the car was unloaded, it would come back up the same way by prying the brakes off.
I guess it took maybe 50 trips up and down those stairs to empty the two floors out, there was a total of about 25 tons worth of stuff to move out, it was a real nightmare but the elevator trick worked great.
 
#45 ·

I hadn't realized asbestos was used that extensively before the 1920's. I haven't seen anything yet in this building from pictures that I can directly say was asbestos, but there is bound to be some here. I think the main hazard here is lead paint, but that can be controlled with respirators while remodeling. The insulation on the boiler pipes looks more recent, a DIY job where someone ducttaped a foam material or rags to the pipes from the looks of the pictues. Does not look like asbestos there to me.

I will post a few pictures of an area in the back portion of the building that I think would make a great space for the first rentals. Remember the picture I sent you where I had the back portion circled in red? These pictures are inside that area on the second floor. The first picture shows the "wall of windows" on the second floor from the inside. The damaged wall on the left is a brick division wall between the main and the back portion of the building. I believe the badly damaged spot on the third picture is where a chimney comes down on the opposite side of the wall. Probably could put 2 X 4's over the brick up to the height of the partial wall in the middle of the room and hang drywall. These ceilings are too high and inefficient for a rental. If I knocked out the damaged plaster and lathe (assuming the floor joists above were solid), do you think I could get away with just hanging a drop ceiling down around where that average-hight wall stands? I see where waterpipes are coming in on that wall... with some new electrical it would be ready for a tenant in no time. The fourth picture shows what I believe is the third floor in that back portion... likely the top-left window from the outside of the building.

My dad has original loose-fill vermiculite insulation in his house from the late 50's. Don't know where it was from, or it's R-value, but in recent years he put inexpensive R-19 rolls of batts insulation overtop of the old vermiculite. He figured that the added value of the old insulation to the new would be enough for a decent overall R-value.

You had mentioned that because the tar was black, it will expand and contract and crack after a few years, not to mention holding lots of heat, so if it is affordable, I may just patch and tar the roof, then apply a layer of the white stuff for energy efficiency and hopefully to extend the life of the tar. I am sure the tar will fill holes and stop leaks. Sounds like a good idea, or do you think the white stuff on top is still a waste of time/money?

I agree, self adhesive things don't seem to last as long. But that adhesive ice guard put down over tar paper around the edge of a roof seems pretty good. I will most likely entirely re-do the flashings as you suggested.

Well, at least they fixed that old building up. Or, perhaps, just made it liveable. Wow... that elevator... I would have never thought of that. Wonder how anyone else got their stuff out. Do you think you totaled it, or was it still serviceable? Just when I thought I was border-line hoarder... man, you sure had alot of stuff!
 

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#46 ·
The insulation on the boiler pipes looks more recent, a DIY job where someone ducttaped a foam material or rags to the pipes from the looks of the pictues. Does not look like asbestos there to me."
Well, lesser risk then is the previous people likely removed all the old asbestos pipe coverings, which means they were likely careless with the removal and disposal and got it on the floor and elsewhere. There's probably traces left but not as bad as it was.

I will post a few pictures of an area in the back portion of the building that I think would make a great space for the first rentals.
These ceilings are too high and inefficient for a rental. If I knocked out the damaged plaster and lathe (assuming the floor joists above were solid), do you think I could get away with just hanging a drop ceiling down around where that average-hight wall stands?
Ugh, nothing worse than cheap dropped ceilings, you'd have to re-light or move all the lights too. A ceiling fan is better. My building has 13' ceilings, some fool put adropped ceiling in but it was taken out before I bought and I'm GLAD it's gone!


My dad has original loose-fill vermiculite insulation in his house from the late 50's. Don't know where it was from, or it's R-value, but in recent years he put inexpensive R-19 rolls of batts insulation overtop of the old vermiculite. He figured that the added value of the old insulation to the new would be enough for a decent overall R-value.
Vermiculite's R value is about 2 per inch, a bit late now I suppose, but the very last thing you ever want to do with vermiculite is disturb it in any way, while laying batts over it is not as bad as drilling out holes for recessed lamps and moving the stuff around, ANY disturbance of this stuff puts the microscopic asbestos particles in the air.
Tests have been done proving this, the stuff produces clouds of microscopic particles, and of course messing around in the attic get's it all over your clothes, hair, shoes and when you leave the attic you inevitably bring this stuff into the room and carpeting below.
My building has 2" of this crap in the attic, soon as I saw it was when I decided to seal the attic up permanently and re-run all the wiring on the ceiling surface. I also caulked every possible crack, crevass and hole. The ceiling is tin, so as long as seams are caulked it's good. The key is leave it 100% undisturbed and it's not an immediate problem, but once you start disturbing it in any way its big trouble!
HVAC, electricians and roofers are at the most risk as these persons would be working long hours around this material cutting holes for ceiling lights and wiring, vents etc. and digging in it. Then they climb down into the living space and get the stuff on the carpeting etc and of course the carpets will get vacuumed and the particles are so small they go through the normal paper/bag type vacuum cleaner filters and into the air.
Then the worker gets in their vehicle, contaminates that, goes into their home and take off their dirty work clothes which usually the wife puts in the washer.

It's an insidious, terrible material.


You had mentioned that because the tar was black, it will expand and contract and crack after a few years, not to mention holding lots of heat, so if it is affordable, I may just patch and tar the roof, then apply a layer of the white stuff for energy efficiency and hopefully to extend the life of the tar. I am sure the tar will fill holes and stop leaks. Sounds like a good idea, or do you think the white stuff on top is still a waste of time/money?
I don't know how well ANYTHING actually sticks to tar, it's a petroleum based waste product basically, it tends to soften and even melt a bit. Seems to me painting anything over it is like painting a greasy wall.

Well, at least they fixed that old building up. Or, perhaps, just made it liveable. Wow... that elevator... I would have never thought of that. Wonder how anyone else got their stuff out. Do you think you totaled it, or was it still serviceable? Just when I thought I was border-line hoarder... man, you sure had alot of stuff!
After the deadbeat muslim tenant next to my place who always made excuses why he couldnt give me the rent check for the landlord early on when there was one and got on my bad side with all he did- rang my bell and when I opened the door to the elevator he had a samurai sword in his hand and a stray dog by the collar I had been feeding, and threatened to cut the dog's head off and hang it on my door if he saw him in the hallway again.
I suspect he had to haul all his furniture and stuff down 5 flights of stairs, served him right :)

Yes, I had a lot there for sure! It took 5, 24' U-Haul trucks to move out.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Well, they saved me from having to clean that asbestos up! And about not disturbing it... well... I have a horror story that just got worse. In my dad's house, where the attic was full of vermiculite, the fact that he put down batts is barely the tip of the iceburg when it comes to not disturbing it. Well, he had a leak in the roof. A bad one, before the roof was replaced. I came home to visit him one rainy friday, and a several foot section of plaster had fallen from a hole in the roof where water entered and pooled on the plaster. That vermiculite was EVERYWHERE in the spare bedroom. I was shocked how much had fallen down. Not knowing the hazards of asbestos, we cleaned up the broken plaster, and got out the shop-vac and swept up all of the vermiculite. Boy, bet that left an imprint in my lungs... that was about two years ago.

I know, I know, I hate dropped ceilings too. I really hate them, but you saw those pictures. Plaster was trashed, and the ceilings must have been at least 12 foot! I don't think there is another reasonable way to go with a rental. I would never install them where I lived, but a cheap, clean, easy to create rentable space is a must if I ever hope to save enough to repair/restore the rest of the main portion of the building. That one storefront (Liberty Tax) MIGHT bring in enough to cover a 15 year mortgage plus taxes (hopefully). Can you imagine the heating bill? (Good thing the boiler is shot, LOL). I am afraid to find out what it would cost to insure this place in its current condition. Those lights look dingy anyway, I might just leave them in-place above a dropped ceiling and bring down electrical wires to install ceiling fans at the new room height, to give a more homey feel.

In that first pictue that I posted last time (posted again bellow), I might also just take out that wall in the middle. That back portion has the wall of windows, but the back of the apartment has nearly no natural light (some light allowed through enclosed atruim area). If this wall were taken out, a more open-concept floor plan would be allowed to better distribute natural light. That front area by the windows would serve as a living/dining area, and it would fade back into an open kitchen area with bedrooms/bathrooms in the back. Same applies to the third floor. I think each floor in this back section could accomodate a two bed one bath apartment on it. The wall to the right in the photo, I believe, holds the currently blocked-off stairwell to the main road for the main upstairs access in this wing, which I would re-open. It appears from street level that fiberglass panels were nailed over the doorway, for whatever reason.

About the roof, I would probably end up patching it, then taring it, leaving off the white patch. I think it would hold out several years after that. Now, the Lowe building... that is just a nightmare. I am hoping its roof is solid, and that the leakage that came clean down to the storefront area is just from flashing that has been pulled away from the brick years ago. That would be a nice, easy fix; as opposed to replacing the entire roof. But, then again, that trash bucket full of water WAS in the middle of the floor. Even if it is flaulty flashing, the rafters are likely all along the front of the building, and they are likely all rotted from water seeping in.

Wow... that's pretty harsh with the dog. I would have reported him, personally, after he did that to me... that would have really set me off. Guy sounds like a potential terrorist! It would serve him right, unless he stayed there because he didn't have to pay rent to anyone! Was everyones power still off as well? If so, I see why you wanted to move out. I've never been to New York, but I'm sure it's a pretty rough place.
 

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#48 ·
That vermiculite was EVERYWHERE in the spare bedroom. I was shocked how much had fallen down. Not knowing the hazards of asbestos, we cleaned up the broken plaster, and got out the shop-vac and swept up all of the vermiculite.
Oh boy, see, that's another thing- roof leaks causing the ceiling to decay and then that vermiculite is in the room everywhere.
Using a shop vac is not good either, from what you describe, there is almost certainly asbestos still there in the rooms, it is an insidious material because it has microscopic particles that float in the air with the slightest disturbance.
It's a tough one to know how much exposure will do how much damage, some people may be much more sensitive than others, but in theory just one particle in the lungs could cause cancer and there's no known safe exposure level, in short we just don't have all the answers.
Obviously the less exposure there is, and the less concentration of it the better, but in the home with a ceiling collapse like that and the stuff getting everywhere, it would cause a high exposure initially and during cleanup, but then continued exposure long term with varying lower levels of it in carpets, bedding, drapes, furniture, on the walls and surfaces etc.

There's not really anything you can do at this point other than stay out of that house. Probably everyone has had exposures of some kind at some point in life since it's so everywhere, just be aware you have been exposed to it and be alert in the future to the first signs of any health issues that could trace back to it.

Here's a scandal if there ever was one, the background story:


W.R. Grace & Co. is associated with the one of the largest asbestos contaminations in American history. The company purchased vermiculite asbestos mines and a processing mill in Libby, Montana in 1963 and operated them until 1990. Vermiculite is a naturally-occurring mineral which is mined from raw ore deposits in a method very similar to asbestos mining.

Employing up to 200 people, Grace & Co. produced up to 200,000 tons of vermiculite a year. Its Zonolite Mountain mine was shut down in 1990 after large quantities of airborne asbestos fibers were discovered. From that discovery began a steady stream of asbestos-related lawsuits against W.R. Grace.

More than 400 of Libby's residents died from exposure to the asbestos in the Grace mines, and at least half of the town's population of 3,000 is currently ill. Grace has faced more than 250,000 asbestos-related lawsuits, and it declared bankruptcy in 2001.

Criminal proceedings against W.R. Grace & Co. began in 2001, and the case is now considered one of the largest asbestos-related environmental cleanup lawsuits in the country. The U.S. government charged the company and seven of its top executives with concealing information about ongoing health problems caused by exposure to their asbestos-contaminated vermiculite mine in Libby.

Records obtained from the company revealed that as far back as the 1970s executives had been aware that the asbestos found in the vermiculite mine was not only sickening employees, but also the residents of the nearby community. Grace was additionally charged with obstructing Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cleanup efforts at the site.

As a result of the 2009 trial, W.R. Grace & Co. was ordered to pay the U.S. government more than $54 million to cover cleanup costs related to the vermiculite mine that Grace operated near Libby. Now a designated Superfund site, the mine disturbed a vast area of asbestos that contaminated individual residences, schools and businesses in the town of Libby, as well as the water and soil in the area. More than $5 million of the fine was earmarked for medical testing and mortality analyses of Libby residents who had perished after mining operations began.

In June 2009 the EPA declared a Public Health Emergency in the towns of Libby and Troy, Montana. Incidence of asbestosis among the residents of these small communities was "staggeringly higher than the national average for the period from 1979-1998," according to the EPA.

W.R. Grace & Company knew all along that abestos from its Libby, Montana, mine was sickening workers and their families -- but said nothing. Only now, a decade after the mine closed, are the town's residents learning the painful truth.
Under ordinary circumstances, Gayla Benefield should be looking forward to a peaceful retirement among neighbors and family. But Libby is no ordinary town.

For the past 40 years, Benefield has watched an epidemic of lung disease spread quietly through the valley. It killed both of her parents: First her father, a former miner, then her mother died of asbestosis, a cruel thickening of the lungs caused by exposure to asbestos. "It took my mother 17 months to slowly suffocate," Benefield recalls. "The oxygen she was getting was the equivalent to what you would give a newborn, because that was the size of the lung capacity she had when she died."

Other miners and their families were getting asbestosis too, along with malignant lung tumors and mesothelioma, a rare cancer of the pleural lining. They suspected a connection between their illnesses and the dust in the mine, but they could never be sure. Every day after work, the men would come home covered with a fine white powder. Their wives inhaled it as they scrubbed clothing and curtains and floors. Their children breathed it in as they played on the carpet. The miners were told it was just "nuisance dust," nothing to worry about -- even though W.R. Grace knew well that the dust they were breathing was loaded with microscopic asbestos fibers that could kill them and their families.
Two years ago, a Libby jury -- after hearing a Grace executive testify that he knew there was asbestos up in the mine, and that it could kill the mine workers and their families -- awarded the sisters $250,000 in wrongful-death damages.

Vermiculite is a shiny mineral, similar to mica, that pops like corn when heated. The puffy product, as light as cork, was once a popular form of building insulation and is still an ingredient in potting soil. Vermiculite itself is harmless: The problem is that the layers of igneous rock where it is found almost always contain asbestos, exposure to which has been definitively linked to several fatal lung diseases for more than 70 years. The vermiculite deposit outside Libby is particularly dangerous because it is laced with tremolite, the most toxic form of asbestos. Tremolite's long fibers are barbed like fishhooks. They work their way into soft lung tissue, and they never come out.

Until the mid-1970s, the vermiculite mined in Libby was processed in the "dry mill," a place so dusty that workers often couldn't see their hands on their brooms. The mill workers suffered the worst exposure, but the rest of the miners and the townspeople got their share of dust as well. What wasn't swept out of the dry mill and dumped down the mountainside was spewed out a ventilation stack and into the air. By W.R. Grace's own estimates, some 5,000 pounds or more of asbestos was released each day. On still days, some of it settled back on the mine site. When the wind blew from the east, a film of white dust covered the town.

it was heated and popped for commercial use under the brand name Zonolite.

Not all the vermiculite left Libby. Grace had its own expansion plant and a bagging operation called an "export plant" in town, right next to the baseball diamonds. The area was ringed with spilled or discarded batches of Zonolite. Kids played in the piles, and people brought home bags of the stuff to pour into their attics or use in their gardens.
 
#49 ·
Can you imagine the heating bill? (Good thing the boiler is shot, LOL). I am afraid to find out what it would cost to insure this place in its current condition.
High ceilings are not the problem, since the heated floor above acts as insulation, it's the lack of insulation in the walls, leaky single pane windows and no attic insulation, it's also a lack of ceiling fans to push the warmer air back to the floor area. Dropped ceilings won't make any difference on heating costs- the suspended ceilings have no insulation value and the heat just goes up into the space above where at best it warms the floor above from the underside.
I pay $55 a month for insurance for my building- liability, fire, contents etc and it's basically replacement value on it, but then the building is in good condition.


Wow... that's pretty harsh with the dog. I would have reported him, personally, after he did that to me... that would have really set me off. Guy sounds like a potential terrorist! It would serve him right, unless he stayed there because he didn't have to pay rent to anyone! Was everyones power still off as well? If so, I see why you wanted to move out. I've never been to New York, but I'm sure it's a pretty rough place.
Yes, the power was still off untill the $35,000 bill that was due was paid by someone. Yes it is a tough city, and while that part of Brooklyn near Grand Army Plaza was better than most, during the after-work hours when the huge commercial bakery one street over closed and the workers went home, I was the only white guy around in an all black neighborhood and I had at least 3 very scary confrontations with people there on the streets, one of which was an attempted mugging but my dog who didn't like strangers lunged at the 2 guys and they took off. There was also a gang of kids there too.
It was a pretty tense place, and everyone's lofts in the building complex had been broken into and robbed except mine, and it was because I had 4 large dogs, and my stairway door was covered with a sheet of 3/4" plywood and the door locks had wide 1/4" thick steel plates bolted over them leaving only a hole large enough for the key.
 
#50 · (Edited)
"High ceilings are not the problem, since the heated floor above acts as insulation"
What would you suggest to do with the twelve foot (or so) ceilings in that bad of shape? You saw the water damage picture. I assumed that ceilings that high would turn away potential renters, and they would assume a lower ceiling with new tiles would be more enegry efficient. I hate drop ceilings, but it would make easy access for installing ductwork and electric, and makes accessing plumbing in case of a leak easier. What does it typically cost to run new wooden framing for a ceiling? I have heard bad things about metal (aluminum) studs, but would they be OK for use solely in the ceiling if they are cheaper to hang drywall? How do you feel on them? I'd imagine that hanging drywall on a ceiling would be much more difficult that installing a drop ceiling. Which would be more cost efficient? Only windows to worry about in this area would be the "window wall" up front. The issue with the rest of the area is likely just uninsulted masonry walls. Doubt the ceilings have any insulation either. I don't know if this place is even insurable. Lots of agents in town, but none likey want to take on the liability. Possibly one of the reasons it's been on the market for so many years.

"Yes it is a tough city, and while that part of Brooklyn near Grand Army Plaza was better than most, during the after-work hours when the huge commercial bakery one street over closed and the workers went home, I was the only white guy around in an all black neighborhood and I had at least 3 very scary confrontations with people there on the streets, one of which was an attempted mugging but my dog who didn't like strangers lunged at the 2 guys and they took off. There was also a gang of kids there too."
Man, I'd never want to live in that area! I can't blame you for moving. I'd be terrified to live in that area. Sounds like you had yourself pretty well secured there. Did anyone ever try to break into your loft? Honestly, when we moved to East Liverpool, I didn't like it a whole lot. I never imagined staying here long-term, but the place has grown on me. It's kind of a sad area, but there are lots of places worse-off. Not to mention the history this town has! There used to be hundreds of potteries here until the 1960's. China has simply taken over everything.

"W.R. Grace & Co. is associated with the one of the largest asbestos contaminations in American history."
I had heard of the asbestos mine in Libby, MT, but I had never read into it. Didn't imagine it was ever that bad! That's one story. I don't care if they filed for bankruptcy, they ought to have still been held accountable for their actions. They likely ended lots of lives, put many in misery, and completely got away with it. Shows how corrupt our justice system is. Their executives that let the mining go on all those years after obvious dangers ought to all be jailed for life. On another note, I heard that asbestos was more of a long-term exposeure damager, so I think our little vermiculite accident will be alright. I couldn't find info on who started using asbestos in building construction, but I did find who I believe to be the inventor of leaded paint. Ironically, he was also the inventor of leaded gasoline, CFC's, and freon. Man, this guy did alot of damage!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.
 
#51 · (Edited)
What would you suggest to do with the twelve foot (or so) ceilings in that bad of shape? You saw the water damage picture. I assumed that ceilings that high would turn away potential renters, and they would assume a lower ceiling with new tiles would be more enegry efficient.
The hate of classic high ceilings and putting in "modern" looking suspended ceilings and those semi clear "crackle" panels under the fluorescent lamps hidden above was a phenomenon that was part of the 70s and 80s. It was the same with oak furniture, back then you could't give oak furniture away, no one wanted it, then suddenly EVERYONE wanted those big heavy oak tables and chairs with the carved lion claw feet and they became hot collector's items as antiques selling for thousands.

More people WANT the high classic ceilings, those businesses who don't are more likely looking to rent in a NEW building as they want that contemporary modern sleek office tower look and LED lighting etc. They don't want to be in an 1880s building with wood floors and an antique facade out front (doesn't fit the modern business image well)
What does it typically cost to run new wooden framing for a ceiling?
I'd imagine that hanging drywall on a ceiling would be much more difficult that installing a drop ceiling. Which would be more cost efficient
Installing drywall on the ceiling is certainly not a one man deal, it's a big pain in the behind, and then you have to tape and mud all those joints, oh gawd no thanks!
What's wrong with a classic tin ceiling? it certainly would fit the style of the building and era. It's still made today in a choice of aluminum or tin plated steel in 2 foot square sheets. I tore out the ceiling in what was the dining room in my house and made it a cathedral ceiling and installed tin throughout, it was real easy, one man job just putting up 1/2" CDX and air nailing the tin on.
The tin plated steel is currently $7.75 a section, that is equiv to $62 for a 4'x8' area, at that price it's competitive with a lot of other ceiling materials. Drywall would require at least one helper, the tin you don't need a helper and you just air nail it up and it's done, no taping, sanding, drywall dust.

The tin was so nice I never painted it, it still has it's original mirror polish appearance.
The front parlor I used aluminum as it was the first room I did and they had a sale on the aluminum, this ceiling I painted and detailed with various colors.

http://www.mbossinc.com/

Part of the ceiling in my cathedral ceiling former dining room, I didn't have the top section covered yet in the view from 2008.



I can't advise you on what to do with the ceiling or what the cost is for everything, but I know what I did, and what I would do.

Doubt the ceilings have any insulation either. I don't know if this place is even insurable. Lots of agents in town, but none likey want to take on the liability. Possibly one of the reasons it's been on the market for so many years.

I know the ceilings don't, the ceiling is nothing but the underside of the floor above, so the heat is not wasted. It IS wasted and lost thru an uninsulated attic or cockloft.
The guy who owns the building currently must have insurance, whatever insurance he has today is the one to go to. I'm with State Farm, all I asked about was liability for if someone slipped on the ice on the sidewalk or something, they would not provide JUST liability insurance, they required the building be insured as part of the policy.

Man, I'd never want to live in that area! I can't blame you for moving. I'd be terrified to live in that area. Sounds like you had yourself pretty well secured there. Did anyone ever try to break into your loft?
Someone tried, I saw evidence of someone working at the back stairwell door with a crowbar, but they gave up. They broke into the other lofts in the building by punching holes through the walls, and the dance studio below me they reached one of their windows from the roof of a lower buiding next door and a ladder. But I had 4 dogs who made a lot of noise when anyone came to the door, so I have no doubt they made a lot of noise during the attempt.

I had heard of the asbestos mine in Libby, MT, but I had never read into it. Didn't imagine it was ever that bad! That's one story. I don't care if they filed for bankruptcy, they ought to have still been held accountable for their actions.

Their executives that let the mining go on all those years after obvious dangers ought to all be jailed for life. On another note, I heard that asbestos was more of a long-term exposeure damager, so I think our little vermiculite accident will be alright. I couldn't find info on who started using asbestos in building construction, but I did find who I believe to be the inventor of leaded paint. Ironically, he was also the inventor of leaded gasoline, CFC's, and freon. Man, this guy did alot of damage!
Medical science doesn't have all the answers, and a lot depends on the individual, which is why some people can smoke 3 packs of cigs a day for 50 years and die in their 90s and someone else who never smoked a day in their life develops lung cancer in their 20s, but one thing is clear- ANY exposure, even once is a significant risk. By once or minimal we are talking about say, a guy replacing the brake shoes on his old truck in the driveway and being exposed to the brake dust that has asbestos.
Having a ceiling fall down in a residence whose attic is full of vermiculite is not a one time exposure, it becomes a long term multiple exposures incident because first there's the cleaning up what is on the floors, then there is the use of a vacuum cleaner which further puts it into the air, and then there is the dust that lands on the furniture, walls, light fixtures, carpeting and all other surfaces. Over time with weekly house cleaning what is wiped off the table tops and so forth goes away, but every time that vacuum is used it's putting more into the air that was in the filter, and more if it wasn't totally empted and washed out completely, and new filters put in.
What wound up in the carpeting gets somewhat vacuumed out, but it's still there and getting crunched into the carpet further by walking over it.
This is the risk with this vermiculite when something like a ceiling falls down, the stuff LOOKS harmless and most people have no idea it's contaminated by asbestos because WR Grace and the others have kept things quiet, time has marched on and people forget.
Over the coming years and decades many more people will be inadvertantly exposed to it in older homes if they re-roof the house and it includes replacing the deck sheeting or disturbing the attic to run vent pipes, new skylights, HVAC or wiring. Some, like your dad's house will develop water leaks in the roof and not know it for a while because the vermiculite might absorb small leaks enough it doesn't drip in the room below.
But, as happened with your dad's house- the ceiling can cave in unexpectedly.
Many older houses and buildings with this in the attic at some point will be demolished or have a fire, and for the most part people involved will have no clue what the pebbly like fluffy stuff in the attic is, or means.
I found out only by noticing a couple of empty bags in the building's attic one day when I went to look at the space, and I decided to Google the Vermiculite brand name and find out what the R value was, believe me, Googling that brings forth tens of thousands of asbestos related web sites in connection to it.
That was when I decided to seal the attic up completely.
 
#52 ·
Personally, I prefer high ceilings in older homes... I was thinking what I thought would attract renters. If I lived in a portion of it, my area would certainly have original-height ceilings. Bellow is a picture of the main front turret room on the third floor. I'd love to have this area as my living room. However, the ceiling is totaled. Assuming the floor/ceiling joists above are still solid (would a wood hardener-link bellow-solve the problem if they are only semi-weakened?), I would tear off the rotted plaster and lathe. Dont know if the area above should be insulated, considering that there is a small attic area/living space (See top of second picture) above that specific room. I imagined nailing up plasterboard, because I though that tin ceiling prices would be through the roof (no pun intended). I never knew that they were so cheap! I would certainly have to consider putting up plywood and a tin ceiling, considering that the rooms in this old building (like so many other) are small. There isn't much more than what you see in the picture. I would have to consider the same in the rental area I posted about last night. I read up on dropped ceilings, and I was shocked to see how expensive they are. Fairly simple to install, but I assumed they would be much cheaper.

The two smaller unoccupied storefronts on the long side of the main building toward the back are somewhat modern. You can see that the windows have been replaced in recent years (third picture). However, the former tattoo parlor in the very last one is all brick walls, and likely original tin ceilings as well from the pictures. Might be hard on the gas bill, but I really like how it looks on the inside. When I said 'ceilings', I was referring to the the ceilings of the top floor/attic area; I know there is none between the lower levels... sorry for the confusing wording. I would have to ask him who his insurance provider is. If it seems costly, there are several companies just a small walk away downtown where I could get qoutes. There is one right in the building next to this one, as well. For all I know, he could use them. Or, he could have inherited the building or bought it with cash, and simply never aquired insurance because he didn't have to. Just like how he didn't have to patch the roof.

We did a good cleaning of the room, and the plaster was repaired, but that carpet is still in there. I think we hit it with the carpet scrubber, but that might still be an issue. However, that back bedroom is rarely used. Since his attic is now insulated, I might just suggest to nail plywood down to all the floors so the area is sealed off better. There are several things in storage up there. I think the base coat of the plaster had that vermiculite or a similar, styrofoam-type material in it. I recall it when I was looking at the damaged plaster at the time. I thought it was strange that they would put styrofoam material in the base coat of plaster. Did they put asbestos in plaster in the 50's as well?
 

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#54 ·
I was thinking what I thought would attract renters.
Ask some real estate rental agents around the area what trends they are seeing for business rental environments.


Bellow is a picture of the main front turret room on the third floor. I'd love to have this area as my living room. However, the ceiling is totaled. Assuming the floor/ceiling joists above are still solid (would a wood hardener-link bellow-solve the problem if they are only semi-weakened?),
That's real bad, and the fact it's so extensive means it's been going on a while. You know, I really have to point you in the right direction on some of the stuff you are asking about, you really need to stop looking at those homeowner gotcha ADS and promotions, these products are sold to naive homeowners, the elderly who have no idea, and people who don't know any better!
Seriously, a wood hardener??? give us a break! I don't care what glowing testimonials from 85 year old homeowners who have no clue, or how many lifetimes worth of "guarantees" these things have, you can't patch and glue, tape, seal, paint or slather the latest miracle glop over ROTTEN structural lumber or roofs full of holes! Any kind of glop sold over the counter in a can for $29.95 or $49.95 or whatever is NOT going to fix your way out of replacement and proper repair of a roof or load bearing structural members of a floor, and I'm sure others here will agree with me on this.

STOP reading those ads!


I would tear off the rotted plaster and lathe. Dont know if the area above should be insulated, considering that there is a small attic area/living space
By all means take off the damaged plaster and lathe, and re-sheet it with CDX, 5/8" is good, 1/2" might be okay- screwed into the joists above not nailed. Then you can air nail tin or pressed aluminum ceiling.
The insulation goes in the attic.
(See top of second picture) above that specific room. I imagined nailing up plasterboard, because I though that tin ceiling prices would be through the roof (no pun intended). I never knew that they were so cheap! I would certainly have to consider putting up plywood and a tin ceiling,
They usually screw plasterboard not nail it.
You don't even really have to put plywood up- just strips per their instructions to nail the perimeters and seams of the tin to, but I prefer plywood because it's SO much easier and you have no issues with missing a badly put up narrow strip of wood due to mismeasurements or whatever.It also adds a little sound resistive material and ties all the joists in together nicely.


I read up on dropped ceilings, and I was shocked to see how expensive they are. Fairly simple to install, but I assumed they would be much cheaper.
The typical suspended ceiligns I'm famaliar with use sheet metal T shaped strips that are hung from the old ceiling with wires, and the cheap textured pressed carboard stuff lays on the flanges of the strips. Where there's lights they lay in a section of semi clear crackle plastic, and crackle is exactly what that garbage does real quick from the heat and UV light from the bulbs- you go to flex it a little to take it out to replace a bulb and 9 times out of 10 the stuff just cracks apart handling it.
Dust, cobwebs and dirt accumulates in there like nothing else- falls in from the floor above too.
They are not exactly easy to install- you have to get it all level and even everywhere or it looks like mountains and valleys.
My building had one of these ceilings, it must have been down 3-4 feet below the original ceiling, and every few feet they nailed up those suspension wires.


I would have to ask him who his insurance provider is. If it seems costly, there are several companies just a small walk away downtown where I could get qoutes. There is one right in the building next to this one, as well. For all I know, he could use them. Or, he could have inherited the building or bought it with cash, and simply never aquired insurance because he didn't have to. Just like how he didn't have to patch the roof.
I can all but guarantee he has some insurance, if someone so much as slips on ice on the sidewalk and injures themselves, the person they will SUE is the building owner whose sidewalk they fell on, they can go to court and win by citing the fact the snow was either not removed, or it was removed improperly and incompletely, thereby creating a hazard.
The side walks are public access but it is the property owner who has to remove the snow and who is responsible for injuries.
these 2 buildings have sidewalks on BOTH streets.
A story in the paper here on a different topic detailed the guy who was unemployed suddenly and then shortly afterwards he slipped and fell and BROKE his ankle. His bill for the emergency room was $50,000 and he had no insurance, so you know WHO he will go after for that $50,000, right?


We did a good cleaning of the room, and the plaster was repaired, but that carpet is still in there. I think we hit it with the carpet scrubber, but that might still be an issue. However, that back bedroom is rarely used. Since his attic is now insulated, I might just suggest to nail plywood down to all the floors so the area is sealed off better. There are several things in storage up there. I think the base coat of the plaster had that vermiculite or a similar, styrofoam-type material in it. I recall it when I was looking at the damaged plaster at the time. I thought it was strange that they would put styrofoam material in the base coat of plaster. Did they put asbestos in plaster in the 50's as well?
Yes, they put asbestos in cement, plaster, wallboard and many products back then, anything they thought a little extra insulation or fireproofing would help they put it in.
They often mixed horsehair in plaster for reinforcement and to lighten it, horsehair was sold by the bale long ago.
 
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