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Re: old buildings

31K views 157 replies 5 participants last post by  mt999999 
#1 ·
Re: old buildings

mt999999 said:
First, I read through and looked at all 8 pages of pictures (multiple times), and I can say that the picture with the trash can collecting rainwater is in the Lowe building next door (fire escape outside window). The Lowe building needs most work, and certainly a new roof over it; it is included in the sale and attached on the upper levels. The main building is pretty solid from what I've seen. I know the plaster damage is bad, but this is an amazing old building with beautiful archetecture, and I can't bear the thought that it might be left to fully rot away.
That's another issue, the attachment to neighboring buildings when one has a leaking roof and is in major deterioration. The plaster damage, celing caving in etc is indicative of a lot of water getting in the walls from the roof, and it's mostly trapped in there.

mt999999 said:
Maybe I'm trying to jump into this too fast, and maybe I'll get in over my head, but I think it is still saveable..
As long as the foundation and brick walls are solid, in plumb and in good condition it's certainly saveable. The big killer besides cost, is if the leaking rain from the roof soaks into the top and upper brick walls and starts freezing, then you have major trouble!

mt999999 said:
I'm sure the electrical, plumbing, and all will need work. One of the first things that I would do would be to tar and patch the roof.
I have a feeling all of those will need more than work, closer to replacement with in-code materials and practices. I don't know how stringent your buildings dept is there, but here the city said no permits were needed for renovation/remodelling as long as it's not a structural change, or a change in use i.e. taking the commercially zoned building and making it a residence.
Here, you can get a building permit for $5, I added a new studio room on my house in 2006 and all they required was a rough sketch of the property the room plan, and $5
You certainly could do most of the grunt work yourself, and even if they are stringent, you can do the work and have a licensed pro go over it and check it for a fee, just keep to the code or better, and get every book you can on the particular systems so you can learn the correct practices, techniques,tools to use, materials to use etc and you can't wrong.

mt999999 said:
If the rafters are too bad, they could be sprayed for mold/mildew and piggy-backed to new rafters for extra support. The sheathing is probably rotted too.
I have a nasty feeling that won't be allowed, besides, the original rafters and floor joists are typically inserted into a pocket in the brick walls at each end, likely the wood in those pockets is rotted and piggy-backing a new board alongside the old will still rely 100% on the integrity of the old wood in the pockets. You can bet the roof deck is rotted where the leaks are.
This is why roofs are so important to keep maintained, the smallest leak can cause big trouble.
The floor in my kitchen- the kitchen was originally a back porch resting on foot square 8 foot long logs that looked like they were once massive supports salvaged from a commercial building, they were laid directly on some flat rocks on the ground and their centers and bottom were basically all rot.
The floor had a 6" tilt to it across the width, the other end of the joists rested on a 2x4 simply nailed to the concrete block foundation wall.
I wound up digging the whole area out, putting in footings, drainage, block walls up, and replacing all the joists with new because the old ones were salvaged junk, some were nothing more than 2x6 and some were 3x12 and every other odd size you can think of, and they had splits and rot.

mt999999 said:
One thing, I must qoute www.oldhouseguy.com in saying, never, ever, ever, replace historical wooden windows. If this building is ever mine, those will be restored with new glazing, wood putty/epoxy, and paint. New windows would kill the look of the building.
I disagree with that guy, IF the building is a historic designated landmark, or it had unusual curved glass windows, stained glass, bevelled glass, was built by George Washington etc then the originals should be saved, but for the most part those old wood windows were simply purchased off the shelf from a supplier, the old version of Menards in a way. Those drafty loose windows were put in back in the day when coal was $5 a ton or less and they didn't care how much heat went out.

With as many windows as there are there, and the cost for heat these days, and the fact the brick has an almost zero R value, every bit you can do will be a massive help on heating and cooling costs. There are modern replacement windows that look appropriate and have dual pane argon low E glass, and not cost too much.
I replaced all the windows on my 1930 house and it made a huge difference I could measure. My kitchen is where my desk is, it has 3 large windows- about 5' square for the largest (2 double hung set side by side) with the original windows here, in the winter I would actually get ICE on the glass inside, and the glass itself was so cold it set up a convection current that felt like a draft.
I HAD to have a 1500 watt space heater in the room on me all the time because it was so cold.Once I replaced those 3 windows, the first winter I found I didn't need that space heater AT ALL, I found my electric bill dropped by about $35 a month. That winter I saved enough on the electric to cover the cost for one of the windows! I no longer feel a cold draft, ice does not form on the inside of the glass any more.
They don't have stock windows that fit my openings for height, they were close though and I was able to fit them in well.

This is a vinyl window on my new studio room addition, I trimmed around them (replaced all the old ones) with the same style as the original windows, as you can see, it all looks appropriate to the style of the 1930 house, I even sided the room with new clapboard I made sized the same as the originals. As a bonus the window comes in white, and white trim is what I always used on the house, so it was perfect.
The side boards, header and sill are all treated lumber, most of the originals on the house had bad rot. These windows were about $135 each, double glass, argon, low E and with a screen included, I love them!




That is the reality, you can be historic to a "tee" but things like windows will cost you a lot of money for heat/ ac, and lack of comfort.
The rest of my house has R100 attic insulation and R25 in the walls and it's comfortable.
I had added more insulation to the walls by adding a second wall inside as the plaster and lath were in poor condition, on the interior of all exterior walls I screwed 2x2 strips to the wall studs with long screws, filled that 2" space with celotex, a vapor sheet over that,1/2" plywood and 1/2" sheetrock. I used ply in there so I can hang heavy things on the wall and not have to bother finding studs for anchors.


mt999999 said:
I'd try to save the Plaster and Lathe, but I'm sure the exterior walls would need gutted for plumbing/electrical, and I am willing to be there is little to no insulation in any exterior walls, or even the roof.
If you need to gut the exterior wall plaster/lath to the brick, I would certainly use that opportunity to put insulation in there! It would save a lot of money in heat/ac.
There is at least one contractor I know of who does plaster/lath walls, but this is largely a lost art and it's very expensive and a lot of hand labor involved. You would certainly have to replace with standard sheetrock, but even with this, there's opportunities to give it a texture with sheetrock mud, trowels, stiff brush etc so it's no so flat and smooth.
I used a wallpaper paste brush and sheetrock mud to texture with- moving the brush in rows of semi-circular fan patterns like the old ceiling had in many places.
 
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#155 ·
THIS is why those old single pane windows will NEVER match the dual pane argon filled modern ones, I'm sitting here as comfortable as can be, not a particle of frost on any of my windows and it's a pleasant 72 degrees.
Had I still had the old single panel junk they would all right now be covered with a LAYER of ice/frost on the INSIDE and I would be sitting here freezing my butt off even with a space heater behind my chair as happened every winter before I replaced the damn windows.

 
#156 · (Edited)
THIS is why those old single pane windows will NEVER match the dual pane argon filled modern ones, I'm sitting here as comfortable as can be, not a particle of frost on any of my windows and it's a pleasant 72 degrees.
Had I still had the old single panel junk they would all right now be covered with a LAYER of ice/frost on the INSIDE and I would be sitting here freezing my butt off even with a space heater behind my chair as happened every winter before I replaced the damn windows.
If you choose replacement windows, that is up to you. I look at it from the historical standpoint, where most old, original wooden windows add beauty and charm to the structure, inside and out. I feel that vinyl replacements look "cold and bleak", just plain square boxes. But, each to his own I suppose. One must make the choice between beauty and character, or saving some money. Perhaps they make you more comfortable, and that is fine. Aside from the maintence, one can paint wooden windows any color, adding a personal touch to a home. I do like painting. Some may not like painting, especially on a rental, and that is a reason why people would replace windows. Perhaps some people prefer the look of vinyl, it's also about personal taste. I prefer the look of original windows.

Below are a few pictures of my house I took on New Years day, while I was photographing progress inside for friends and family. Even though the recently-painted upstairs windows are still more bland-looking, the reason that I have not replaced them is mainly based on money. I agree there is nothing much special about them, and I honestly considered replacing them considering the very large amount of decay and neglect they had faced. But, replacement Windows are so expensive, and generally only take up 10% of home energy loss. A much more effective method would be to caulk gaps and cracks, and insulate, which add up to nearly 90% of energy loss (based on studies I have looked into). I have two current pictures of the kitchen below, and a picture of a cabinet layout that I designed. Despite being a common style, I like the two-over-two windows, and they are in nicer shape than any other windows in the house. However, they may have to be replaced (or somehow shortened with new glass added) to make the cabinets work.

Now, the porch windows, on the other hand, are more unique 4-over-1 style windows. While they are not anything fancy, they do have character, and the sun porch is not likely to be heated in the winter as a side note. You can see a close-up on damage to the far-left front window. A couple other front porch windows are like this, with less damage. However, since I do not intend on making the front porch windows functional (only the side porch windows), I can easily repair and paint this. I have seen some very beautiful, well-maintained and unique diamond-shaped, almost leaded-glass looking (wood mutton dividers) upper windows sashes before. I wish I had taken a picture of those windows, but I still know where the building is in Pittsburgh. However, I could imagine how painful the glazing process must be with all those curved muttons on the upper sashes, not to mention getting replacement curved glass cut to shape, or even measured to be cut.

In conclusion, new windows may be more efficient, but also have a large base cost, and will need replaced, likely by the time they are paid off. To me, even if some savings are achieved, the cost of loosing such beautiful architectural details could never be made up. I feel the old windows are priceless! Old windows are more maintence, but It's a decision any homeowner will have to make. I still feel that most old original wooden windows are worth saving, unless they are totally trashed or their current use is not practical (very tall windows barring the installation of kitchen cabinets or the like). If you are happy and more comfortable with your replacement windows, I wish you all the best. A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well!
 

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#157 ·
Caulk helps cut actual drafts but does absolutely nothing to stop the convection process cold surfaces generate:

Freezing from Window Cold Air Convection

We moved into the house 2.5 years ago. We've noticed a "draft" in this room during the winter. Going nutso over this "Draft" , I pulled all 8 recessed light cans and stuffed R-13 insulation in front and behind the Cans...leaving some space of course. I also plugged up all the holes under the Direct Vent Fireplace where air was coming in. I then caulked the two HVAC vents I have. I also pulled all the swtichplates and put in those insulation foam pads behind the switch plates.

As I was caulking the small crevices around the vent boots, I noticed that my problem was not "leaky" air spaces, but cold air convection coming off the windows and making my room "feel" drafty.

cold windows

You said CONVECTION problem. That means that the glass is transferring cold from the outside to the inside.​

Why Single-Pane Windows Feel Drafty

July 6, 2013

We hear a lot that windows are drafty, and sometimes they really are: Every now and then the sashes in old wood windows are so loose that they easily rock back and forth, and these windows can really leak.



Most of the time, though, once we crank up the blower door to measure and detect air leakage, even old single-pane wood windows don’t leak all that much. Most leak some around the pulleys and where the two sashes meet, but decades of old paint do a pretty good job of sealing other areas.


“Oh, yeah?” you say? “Then why do I feel so cold sitting in front of the windows? I mean, I FEEL the draft.”


Here’s what’s up: First, you may well be feeling a draft. Aside from the possibility that the windows really are leaky, it’s certain that the cold window surface is causing air movement. Remember the lesson from physics: Cold air sinks. On a cold day, the cold pane of glass cools down the air immediately next to it, which in turn sinks. Once away from the window, the air heats up again and rises. And this process continues in what's called a convection loop. Even this relatively slight movement of air can create discomfort.


Even if the temperature of the air around you is comfortable, you feel a chill. It’s the opposite of sitting in the sun or under a heater in an outdoor café.
 
#158 ·
Caulk helps cut actual drafts but does absolutely nothing to stop the convection process cold surfaces generate.
I understand the convection process, but honestly, I feel the same convection on all of our late 70's dual-pane windows, french doors and all, that I feel in the original 1920's french doors in my bedroom, with the storm windows up. Not to mention how freezing cold those 70's steel doors get! Even with a pine core, you can't beat a solid-wood door. In my bedroom, I just close the thick curtains at night. Windows insulated, problem solved! Plastic works too, but it's a little trashy. The "curtain method" works best for me.

I've gone around and caulked every gap in crack in our house, but the fact that the attic only has R-19, the masonary walls have only an inch of dead air space between the brick and the plaster (no insulation possible), we have two gas furnaces, a boiler in the 3-story garage, with a mother-in-law suite on top (with only pointless R-11 on the attic ceiling, none on the attic floor), 2 gas water heaters, all of those cold double and single pane windows, several skylights... point is, our gas bill was a whopping $800 last month, no kidding! Thank God I don't have to pay it...
 
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