DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum

DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum (http://www.diychatroom.com/)
-   Building & Construction (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/)
-   -   Raise ceiling/Tray Ceiling. Is it even possible? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/raise-ceiling-tray-ceiling-even-possible-94113/)

Bombcru 01-31-2011 04:45 PM

Raise ceiling/Tray Ceiling. Is it even possible?
 
I am looking into if it is even possible to raise or tray the ceiling. I am pretty sure it is a 1-12 pitch roof, very low slope. I am in Ohio and in a lighter snow area. House was built in 1940, the master was an addition in 1947, and as you walk in there is a 7" step down from the hallway.

originally the closet was going to be moved or resized to meet code, the ceiling had to be removed due to a ice damn, and turned out there was 2 layers of ceiling up. These were also replaced as it was sheet rock and not lathing/plaster.

Once the ceiling was down I noticed that there was 3 extremely low joist where the ceiling was wet, so much so it was 3" (at 86")lower than the joist at the walls (at 89"). So at this point its ether replace the 3 joist and keep the 7' ceilings or someway raise the ceiling to make it seem larger. The whole master is 11'2" x 15'6"(its huge I know)

The ceiling joist are not tied into the rafters except at the 2 walls on the top plates

the biggest concern is I bought a new door and the old opening is 78" the top plate is at 80 the newer doors are all 81", While I can trim down the door a inch or so, It will still hit ceiling upon opening or at least skim it.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7535/53208123.jpg
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2610/75032982.jpg
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6285/44248222.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6622/88386720.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1843/masterx.png

oh'mike 01-31-2011 06:14 PM

Can you get a shot of the outside of the house? That original roof is rough--

Is it a shed off the main structure or a peaked roof with a ridge?

Steeler99 01-31-2011 07:56 PM

yeah, some outside pics will definitely help alot, there's definitely not much to work with as those photos show...without major changes anyway. If you measure the joist to floor heights at both ends, I'm sure either myself or someone else can verify the pitch with you and perhaps offer you some suggestions.

It would also be good to know if the wall that seperates the bath/rest of the house and the bedroom is a load bearing wall. That influences things quite alot

Bombcru 02-01-2011 01:55 AM

Here is the current layout.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8014/bp1v.png
This shows the support walls and the additions.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/758/bplayout.png


These show the addition pitch compared to the main roof, just follow the imaginary line from the gutter forward to get a idea. When I measured the height increase in a 1 foot section I got 1" per foot. Ill get exact measurements when I get back there.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/774/arch2.png

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8716/picture278w.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7388/picture280j.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3492/houseside.jpg

oh'mike 02-01-2011 07:51 AM

If the roof rafters are attached properly to the original house--
And to the top plate of the wall---then the ceiling can be removed--

iamrfixit 02-01-2011 04:29 PM

The reason you had ice dams is the attic above the ceiling is too warm. Heat loss through the ceiling plus heat from the sun melts the snow and it runs to the colder edge of the roof and freezes creating a dam. This is controlled first by adequate insulation, but second by proper venting. Cold outside air needs to be drawn in through the soffit and exhausted up at or near the peak. Looking at the pics you only seem to have gable end vents.

Can't tell for sure by the pics but the framing looks like 2x6. If you remove the ceiling and use the existing roof framing for the new ceiling you are not going to get much insulation in there. By the time you allow air space for venting you will be lucky to get even R13 in there, that is a long ways from the recommended amount. Same with a tray ceiling, depending on depth of the tray. A shortage of insulation and lack of venting will cause the same ice dam problems again in the future. There is also some debate about life of roofing material with no cooling effect from the venting during hot summer days.

The real solution to all your issues would be re-frame the roof of the addition; either with a gable roof properly tied back into the original roof with valleys on either side or a shed roof like you have now but steeper and tied in up closer to the peak of the original house.

With some diligent insulating and venting you can likely make what you have work but are gonna be stuck with 7 foot ceilings. Some people would just rip the ceiling out and spray foam the under side of the roof, filling the cavities up. The problem with that is; spray foam won't let the water through, if the roof leaks you likely won't know until the framing is totally rotted out.

oh'mike 02-01-2011 06:22 PM

Well said----

Gary in WA 02-01-2011 07:29 PM

Welcome to the forum!

The ceiling joist span is within limits but the rafters are 2-3' over-spanned for a 2x6, depending on the species and grade; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par023.htm

Worse yet, the top of the shed roof rafters are notched 2", more than the limit of Depth/4 or a 2x6 5-1/2” / 4 = 1-5/16” deep notch only at the ends, anything more as you have, require hangers under the lower ends; http://arch.umd.edu/Tech/Structural_..._Guide_A11.pdf

The bottom ends of the rafters are also incorrectly cut as the toe of the rafter, rather than heel, is resting on the wall top plate= weakening the rafter strength; Fig. 19: http://books.google.com/books?id=iwS...rafter&f=false

I suggest rebuilding the roof to match or accent the existing house rather than a added-on box.
You need a header over the hall door as it is carrying a ceiling joists and rafter with the 15’4” span plus the house roof rafters and ceiling joist loads.

Gary

Bombcru 02-02-2011 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBR in WA (Post 582707)
Welcome to the forum!

The ceiling joist span is within limits but the rafters are 2-3' over-spanned for a 2x6, depending on the species and grade; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par023.htm

Worse yet, the top of the shed roof rafters are notched 2", more than the limit of Depth/4 or a 2x6 5-1/2 / 4 = 1-5/16 deep notch only at the ends, anything more as you have, require hangers under the lower ends; http://arch.umd.edu/Tech/Structural_..._Guide_A11.pdf

The bottom ends of the rafters are also incorrectly cut as the toe of the rafter, rather than heel, is resting on the wall top plate= weakening the rafter strength; Fig. 19: http://books.google.com/books?id=iwS...rafter&f=false

I suggest rebuilding the roof to match or accent the existing house rather than a added-on box.
You need a header over the hall door as it is carrying a ceiling joists and rafter with the 154 span plus the house roof rafters and ceiling joist loads.

Gary

Ya I noticed the notching. I already got 2x6 supports to connect the top plate to them for extra stiffening

Trust me I would love to redo the whole roof, Actually The roofing was done incorrectly, its under 8 years old, no flashing, no ice guard/tar paper past 1 roll wide.
It has a patch panel where the Ice dam was...

unfortunitly I am working on a very limited budget and it would need a modified roof if I left it at 1-12, and ive never actually done a roof only framing.

Bombcru 02-02-2011 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamrfixit (Post 582587)
The reason you had ice dams is the attic above the ceiling is too warm. Heat loss through the ceiling plus heat from the sun melts the snow and it runs to the colder edge of the roof and freezes creating a dam. This is controlled first by adequate insulation, but second by proper venting. Cold outside air needs to be drawn in through the soffit and exhausted up at or near the peak. Looking at the pics you only seem to have gable end vents.

Can't tell for sure by the pics but the framing looks like 2x6. If you remove the ceiling and use the existing roof framing for the new ceiling you are not going to get much insulation in there. By the time you allow air space for venting you will be lucky to get even R13 in there, that is a long ways from the recommended amount. Same with a tray ceiling, depending on depth of the tray. A shortage of insulation and lack of venting will cause the same ice dam problems again in the future. There is also some debate about life of roofing material with no cooling effect from the venting during hot summer days.

The real solution to all your issues would be re-frame the roof of the addition; either with a gable roof properly tied back into the original roof with valleys on either side or a shed roof like you have now but steeper and tied in up closer to the peak of the original house.

With some diligent insulating and venting you can likely make what you have work but are gonna be stuck with 7 foot ceilings. Some people would just rip the ceiling out and spray foam the under side of the roof, filling the cavities up. The problem with that is; spray foam won't let the water through, if the roof leaks you likely won't know until the framing is totally rotted out.

I believe it has r30 in there now.
The roof is ridge vented, during the winter its like a wind storm up there...

I have no choice around the door, the ceiling has to be raised to fit the new door. The whole bathroom was was replaced, had to replace a 24" door per code, with a 30" pocket. And of course the plaster cracked floor to ceiling.

I am picking up rafter vents tomorrow so I can tie in the attic to outside to keep the draft down from the drop off into the room from old to newer.

I haven't had a issue with the ice dam this year even with the ceiling wide open and the sofets closed off.

I have a frost king ice dam melting cable across the whole back roof. Usually there products suck, but this thing works like its suppose to.

Bombcru 02-08-2011 02:01 AM

If I ad 2x8x17' sister, to follow the roof line and use hangers on the original top plate/roof line. then attaching the 2x6 and 2x8 with structure bolts.

Would this work with lightweight drywall? I would think this would actually add support to the roof.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:34 PM.