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Old 11-18-2008, 11:41 AM   #46
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Problem with building inspector. Please help.


I'm sure thekctermit will be along shortly to clarify but from what i know is that the international residential code states the minimum code requirements and the states, cities, counties have to enforce these minimum codes. The original poster still has not responded as to why this licensed contractor didn't have the knowledge to at least check and see about permits like i mentioned on the first page and atlantic then mentioned that any contractor should have this knowledge, that's what your paying him for. It is his problem and you should be upset with him for not doing his job, not the building inspector who was doing his job. Even though the inspector did act out of line, he was at least doing his job to protect you from half azz contractors who take shortcuts and don't pull permits. In my opinion your contractor is 100% at fault here and he should be the one you are upset at and putting you up in a hotel till your bathroom is done because he didn't do his job.

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Old 11-18-2008, 12:43 PM   #47
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By saying the contractor is 100% wrong may not be totally acurate.

The home owner is the one that chose to select the contractor, so the home owner is 100% responsible. If the contractor did not have good information (that may have been hidden/known), his liability is reduced. Usually home owners know when something is not right and that is why they call contractors for help. This is not a new situation and is fairly common. Contractors should also be more careful about the jobs they do, what is expected and assesment of the customer.
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Old 11-18-2008, 12:59 PM   #48
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In the end it is the homeowner who hired the contractor so you a right in that fact. Some home owners may know what permits are needed and some might not. That is why they pay a contractor to know these things, and any contractor should know that a bathroom remodel will almost for sure need a permit of some kind be it a building, electrical, or plumbing. Even if they aren't 100% sure if they will need a permit they should at least have the common sense to call the building department to ask. That is why when a contractor does a job they pull the permits because they are the ones doing the work. It is the homeowner who chose the contractor but it is the contractor who does this everyday and according to the original poster is licensed so he should be familiar with the building department and the inspection/permit procedure.
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Old 11-18-2008, 01:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by troach View Post
Why are you being such a dick? I asked.
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Hindsight is 20/20 but he acted like a jerk well before I called him one.
Maybe it's because you called him a Dick and not a jerk. Being called a jerk isn't as bad as being called a Dick, especially from a lady, even though the guy was acting like one.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:36 AM   #50
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Problem with building inspector. Please help.


I suggest you read the comments made by the Termite again. Ignore what others have said. Contact the Inspectors office & talk to whoever is in charge. Ask for an in-person discussion. Tell him your story, referring to your written notes. Admit your ignorance, and ask nicely for his help. Ask to see the code, and ask for him to explain the code. It may be the inspector is a jerk, and others have complained about his actions. I work in Oregon, Idaho and Washington. I have found most inspectors to be fair and good to work with. When I have found a poor inspector, other contractors have noticed the same thing. It sounds as if both you and the inspector were/are jerks.

Good luck, both you and inspector are facing an uphill battle.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
The home owner is the one that chose to select the contractor, so the home owner is 100% responsible. If the contractor did not have good information (that may have been hidden/known), his liability is reduced.
Ignorance of the code and the laws on the books in no way reduces the contractor's (or the homeowner's) liability. "I didn't know" is an excuse, but it isn't a good excuse, and carries no weight.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:51 AM   #52
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But as far as reno goes if the homeowner does the elec. he should get the 3rd party inspection if he's smart. So I don't see how the twsp would be liable in this case.
The authority having jurisdiction bears the responsibility of requiring the code-required inspections on all projects that require permits and inspections (as set forth by the code). As far as renovations go, you don't have a codes enforcement department, you have a codes suggestion department. Merely suggesting that homeowners spend hundreds of dollars on electrical inspections but not requiring it makes the city ripe for a lawsuit.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:13 AM   #53
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Problem with building inspector. Please help.


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It sounds as if both you and the inspector were/are jerks.

Good luck, both you and inspector are facing an uphill battle.
Fireguy said it all. You both said things that were inappropriate and this is a no win situation. It is your word against the inspectors and they already have you at fault with no permit. You can't undo the past, swallow your pride, be persistent and get your permit to finish the room.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
The authority having jurisdiction bears the responsibility of requiring the code-required inspections on all projects that require permits and inspections (as set forth by the code). As far as renovations go, you don't have a codes enforcement department, you have a codes suggestion department. Merely suggesting that homeowners spend hundreds of dollars on electrical inspections but not requiring it makes the city ripe for a lawsuit.
The town does require all the code required inspections for all projects requiring a permit. If they didn't I could see your point as far as law suit possibility. But if the project doesn't require a permit why would the town be liable for the homeowners house, As long as there was no structual changes it's the home owners baby. Keep in mind here I am not argueing with you I just want to understand your side. Like some towns require a permit to change a faucet, I think that's crazy. Job security for the inspector and revenue for the town but that's a little overboard. Just my opinion.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:58 PM   #55
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James, section R105.1 of the International Residential Code outlines what requires a permit and what does not, and R109 describes what inspections are required. They're too wordy and lengthy to copy here.

You said that in your town the homeowner that does remodeling wiring chooses to get the 3rd party inspection if he's smart. From that statement I assume that the city suggests it, but does not require it, and that's the mistake. If the city chooses to ignore the minimum requirements of the code they've adopted, they're open to all sorts of liability. Simply requiring an approved 3rd party inspection (for whatever reason they won't do it themselves ) would place all the responsibility on the 3rd party inspector and not the city. Even if the city adopted the IRC and the NEC, and they knowingly relax requirements in that code by writing them out of the code adoption process, there's an immense amount of liability on their part for making the poor enforcement decision. I've seen it happen. As an enforcement body, you can change the code, but you'd better make it more strict if you want to be able to defend the choice in court.
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:02 PM   #56
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The code(IBC, IRC) is the worst you can build and still be legal unless a local area choose to operate at a better level to guarantte better property values.

As an old code person I worked with said "You can never be wrong going by the effective code, but you may not be right!"
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:39 PM   #57
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Problem with building inspector. Please help.


So the bottom line here is, and correct me if I am wrong:

The permit issue is up for debate. No one here knows for sure if it was required since the OP has not confirmed it either way.

The inspector was way out of line. I don't think there is any doubt on that.

The OP was out of line in calling him a name probably out of frustration. It was not appropriate but she was rattled by the inspector and her fight or flight response was to be expected when confronted by an out of control person.

The contractor should know if a permit was needed since that is what she paid him for, his expertise in these matters.

Codes are not always correct but they are the code and need to be followed even if they are wrong.

Codes vary from county to county, city to city and state to state. They are not always the same and if in doubt call the code department to verify.

Is that about it?
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:58 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
James, section R105.1 of the International Residential Code outlines what requires a permit and what does not, and R109 describes what inspections are required. They're too wordy and lengthy to copy here.

You said that in your town the homeowner that does remodeling wiring chooses to get the 3rd party inspection if he's smart. From that statement I assume that the city suggests it, but does not require it, and that's the mistake. If the city chooses to ignore the minimum requirements of the code they've adopted, they're open to all sorts of liability. Simply requiring an approved 3rd party inspection (for whatever reason they won't do it themselves ) would place all the responsibility on the 3rd party inspector and not the city. Even if the city adopted the IRC and the NEC, and they knowingly relax requirements in that code by writing them out of the code adoption process, there's an immense amount of liability on their part for making the poor enforcement decision. I've seen it happen. As an enforcement body, you can change the code, but you'd better make it more strict if you want to be able to defend the choice in court.
The Town doesn't suggest it at all in a reno where a permit is not required by the town, It just would be a good idea (IMHOP) for a diyer to call the third party elec. insp.for safety sake, In say a bath reno.
Ill have to read the R105.1 in the IRC to shed some light on the subject, And then I'll grab one of theTownship supervisors and see how they are getting around this if something would come up.To be continued lol, Before troach yells at us for highjacking his thread.

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