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cjf1980 04-10-2012 03:06 PM

Patio door bottom sill over brick/concrete block
 
I am planning on putting in a patio door over existing kitchen windows.
The size fits just right (60x80) in width.
For the height, I will be removing a brick(exterior) concrete block (interior) half wall.

Since the patio doors I have seen, come with a sill at the bottom, I can see, just sitting it on the concrete block and sealing the edge will not work.

How do I handle the sill over the brick/concrete bottom.
I do not want to use concrete and would prefer framing in wood.

If I use wood, to frame over the concrete/brick bottom, how do I seal between the brick and wood?
Also what kind of trim (cover) do I use for the bottom exposed wood, since the sill that comes with the door is about 5 inches and the bottom wall is about 9 inches wide.
Basically, I am also uncertain about the exterior trim, inside and around brick.

Any help will be much appreciated

I've also attached a pic in the next post (look below).

Thanks.

CJ

cortell 04-10-2012 03:32 PM

You'll get much better feedback if you attach a few pictures of the area.

cjf1980 04-10-2012 06:15 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 895923)
You'll get much better feedback if you attach a few pictures of the area.

Just got back from work.
Here's a pic.

Just not sure how the sill will sit (water proof and pretty) from the exterior on the brick or concrete block behind the brick.

Appreciate the help.

Thanks,
CJ

cortell 04-10-2012 06:33 PM

Ah. I see that by "over existing kitchen windows", you mean replacing them with a door.

The jlc site has a good thread on the subject of adding a door to a CMU wall:
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=50399

cjf1980 04-10-2012 08:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks Cortell.
I read the post and the discussion is more about load.

That is not a concern here since the wall already has a lintel.

Like I said, my concern is the bottom sill sitting on concrete/brick and not being flush. The sides will be framed with wood so that is not going to be a problem.

If I set wood at the bottom, how do I go about sealing it over brick ?

Can I set a 9" strip of Marble/granite or something similar as the sill over the concrete like in the pic below?
Any thoughts?

Thanks,
CJ

cortell 04-10-2012 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjf1980 (Post 896151)
Thanks Cortell.
Like I said, my concern is the bottom sill sitting on concrete/brick and not being flush. The sides will be framed with wood so that is not going to be a problem.

If I set wood at the bottom, how do I go about sealing it over brick ?

Can I set a 9" strip of Marble/granite or something similar as the sill over the concrete?
Any thoughts?

To suggest something, I'd need to know details about the landing. The picture shows some potted plants. What are they sitting on? Is that a deck or a concrete landing? Can you take pics of that area and describe any details not evident in the pics?

joecaption 04-10-2012 08:57 PM

If I understand you correctly the last thing you want is a sill sitting flush with a slab, deck or stoop.
A 100% sure way of getting water to come in under it and take out the subflooring, bottom plates and sheetrock inside the home.
Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.

cortell 04-10-2012 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecaption (Post 896164)
If I understand you correctly the last thing you want is a sill sitting flush with a slab, deck or stoop.
A 100% sure way of getting water to come in under it and take out the subflooring, bottom plates and sheetrock inside the home.
Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.

Right. We need to know the distance between the subfloor and whatever that deck/landing is. Once we know that, and what sits in front of that window, we can see if there's some solution that would allow there to be a 6" drop past the sill.

cjf1980 04-10-2012 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 896161)
To suggest something, I'd need to know details about the landing.

Shall take some more pics tomorrow.
That is the deck on which you see the pots and were just lying there.

I do not plan on breaking the brick upto the level of the deck.
Infact, the subfloor inside is about 8" above the deck.

I plan on cutting 2 brick levels above the deck.

But how do I set the sill? Do I use wood or set in a slab of some stone.
I do not want to create a formed concrete sill.

I'd prefer wood, but then how do I seal it, cover it etc. once I have set the door in place.

If I use a slab of stone, I could set it over the brick 6-8" above the deck level, frame the sides with wood and seal the steel/alum sill over the stone.

Shall have some pics tomorrow.

Thanks,
CJ

cjf1980 04-10-2012 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecaption (Post 896164)
Just order a door with wider jambs and it should come with a wider threshold.

Is that a custom order ?
At the stores I have checked out, the max jamb was about 5-6".

What am I looking at price wise for a door with wider jambs?

And what do you suggest I use to seal the threshold that sits on brick (6-8" above the deck)?

Thanks,
CJ

cortell 04-10-2012 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjf1980 (Post 896193)
Shall take some more pics tomorrow.
I do not plan on breaking the brick upto the level of the deck.
Infact, the subfloor inside is about 8" above the deck.

I plan on cutting 2 brick levels above the deck.

But how do I set the sill? Do I use wood or set in a slab of some stone.
I do not want to create a formed concrete sill.

I'd prefer wood, but then how do I seal it, cover it etc. once I have set the door in place.

If I use a slab of stone, I could set it over the brick 6-8" above the deck level, frame the sides with wood and seal the steel/alum sill over the stone.
CJ

Ah. That really helps. OK, so I would form a concrete sill, then fasten the door sill to that. That sort of thing is done in every home with a slab foundation; pretty standard stuff. Not sure why you want a wood sill. You could get that by still doing the concrete sill, but 1.5" shorter, then fastening a ripped piece of PT 2x10 board to that. But that's just a point for water penetration, and making that look good will take some thought.

cjf1980 04-11-2012 11:27 AM

6 Attachment(s)
Thanks once again Cortell but I was trying to avoid a concrete sill.
Is that the only way to go.
Can I set a 9" piece of marble or granite on the bottom over the brick/block, such that it is about 1" above the subfloor? Any issues?
That way I do not have to get down to the wood beams below.


The pics below are from a video, on youtube. My layout is the exact same.
Wood was used for the sill/bottom framing over the concrete block and sitting over the beams.
In the other, the wood is over both the brick and block and it looks like regular silicone or similar sealant was used.

The rest of the door, I have it figured.

My biggest concerns are with the exterior - the bottom framing/sill, sealing and outside trim (to make it look pretty). Until that's out of the way, I won't be comfortable starting this project.

Thanks for all your inputs.

CJ.

I shall post more pics of the deck area and exterior when I get back from work.

cortell 04-11-2012 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjf1980 (Post 896538)
Thanks once again Cortell but I was trying to avoid a concrete sill.
Is that the only way to go.
Can I set a 9" piece of marble or granite on the bottom over the brick/block, such that it is about 1" above the subfloor? Any issues?
That way I do not have to get down to the wood beams below.

Nope. Like I said, you can go about this any way you want. I'm just telling you how I would go about it. You can put a granite (not sure about marble) ledge there, but that's going to be more difficult. For starters, you need a level plane. You have an area that's half concrete-block, have brick. Fastening a piece of rock to that unevenness with the hope of getting a level area in which to put the door on...sounds tricky to me. Not to mention, how are you going to make it water tight? The number one point of water penetration in a door or window opening is the sill area. Putting wood there would be easier, but you're faced with the same issue of having unnecessary seams and joints that will be potential points of water infiltration.

BTW, a variation of what I'm suggesting is that instead of a concrete sill across both the block and the brick, pour it above the concrete block only, then lay a matching row of bricks in front of it. That would give you a very natural end result, IMO. A little more work, as you need to do some masonry, but shouldn't be too bad.

cjf1980 04-11-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 896547)
You can put a granite (not sure about marble) ledge there, but that's going to be more difficult. For starters, you need a level plane. You have an area that's half concrete-block, have brick.

I plan on leveling the block/brick with a layer of mortar, then setting the granite slab over it.
Would that work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 896547)
how are you going to make it water tight?

Where the brick meets the granite above, I'd have to seal with grout and sealant. I see pics of it done but wasn't sure what is done. Most of the videos just say seal and trim like it is the easy part.
Any ideas?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 896547)
Putting wood there would be easier, but you're faced with the same issue of having unnecessary seams and joints that will be potential points of water infiltration.

Yep working with wood is a lot easier. If there is an issue, it would be a whole lot easier to replace and fix. I'm unsure if I set the slab, that it won't crack with time - then breaking it up between the beams and exterior brick, is going to be a lot more challenging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortell (Post 896547)
BTW, a variation of what I'm suggesting is that instead of a concrete sill across both the block and the brick, pour it above the concrete block only, then lay a matching row of bricks in front of it.

That's an idea. Do I pour around the beams below that rest on the concrete block also, bringing it upto the level of the subfloor (or an inch higher)?

Thanks,
CJ

cortell 04-11-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjf1980 (Post 896672)
I plan on leveling the block/brick with a layer of mortar, then setting the granite slab over it.
Would that work?

That's effectively a thin concrete (mortar) sill! :-) Yes, it would work. The question is whether it will stand up to time--not crack. A thin layer of mortar is fine for parging. Would I basically parge under a heavy door? No way. I'd make it thick and use concrete, and I'd tie it into the concrete block with rebar (reaching to 3/4" from the top of the sill.

Quote:


Where the brick meets the granite above, I'd have to seal with grout and sealant. I see pics of it done but wasn't sure what is done. Most of the videos just say seal and trim like it is the easy part.
Any ideas?
I've got nothing for you there. Just remember. Seals fails in time. That's a guarantee. If I can avoid them, I do. In this case, I would.


Quote:

Yep working with wood is a lot easier. If there is an issue, it would be a whole lot easier to replace and fix. I'm unsure if I set the slab, that it won't crack with time - then breaking it up between the beams and exterior brick, is going to be a lot more challenging.
I don't see it that way. Fortunately, it's your project and you can do it any way you think will work best for you in the long run.


Quote:

That's an idea. Do I pour around the beams below that rest on the concrete block also, bringing it upto the level of the subfloor (or an inch higher)?
I'd put a coating of roofing tar on the beam ends . You want to keep the concrete from transferring moisture to them. You don't need to bring it any higher than the subfloor (and I wouldn't) unless you need the extra height to make a good step down to the deck.


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