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Old 04-01-2008, 03:40 PM   #1
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Hello:

I'm prepping the garage door opening for the garage/studio we're building, but I'm trying to figure out what kind of pressure treated wood to use for the frame and casing.

I've been using a product called Lifespan for the studio door and window casing and corner boards. Those pieces are at least 8" off the ground, even with the top of the foundation walls. Lifespan's warranty only applies if the product is at least 6" above the ground.

The frame and casing for the garage door will extend down to the concrete garage slab and driveway. In this case does concrete count as "ground," voiding the warranty?

Here's a picture:



If this product isn't appropriate for this use, what kind of P/T lumber would you use? Would it have to be something designated for ground contact (although I think those are generally 4x and 6x posts), or can P/T labeled as Above Ground be in contact with concrete?

Here are some other photos of the project:

http://www.marshall-arts.net/Garage-...ge-Studio.html

Thanks.

Shawn Marshall
Portland, Oregon

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Old 04-01-2008, 03:59 PM   #2
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Quote:
Originally Posted by WShawn View Post
...If this product isn't appropriate for this use, what kind of P/T lumber would you use? Would it have to be something designated for ground contact (although I think those are generally 4x and 6x posts), or can P/T labeled as Above Ground be in contact with concrete?
Thanks. Shawn Marshall, Portland, Oregon

Hi Shawn,
Congratulations on your project.

You can use Pressure treated 2x4 framing lumber for the door frame (That is under the finished exterior trim). Actually, you "should" use this at the points that extend down to the concrete. Additionally, consider cutting the bottom of those vertical pieces at a 45 degree angle, to assist in water drainage. Install the length so that the 45 degeree cut, ends up facing away from the side that will receive the jamb trim board.

As far as what material to use in areas that will be in contact with concrete, consider composite material (non wood - PVC bassed). Examples: Azek, Koma Board, etc.
If using these, follow specific manufacturer installation instructions.

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Old 04-01-2008, 04:34 PM   #3
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Hi:

Thanks for your speedy reply, though I'm not sure I totally understand it.

I might have been imprecise in my question. The garage door opening is essentially framed. There are 6x6 posts on each side of the opening nailed to 2x6 P/T sill plates bolted through foam sill plate insulation to the top of the foundation wall.



This opening is currently 8' 2" wide. I need to install jambs and casing that will have to extend down to the concrete slab and driveway. The jambs will make the opening 8' wide (same as door) and the casing will cover the edges.

I was thinking about vinyl products. I'll look into those.

Shawn Marshall
Portland, Oregon
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:09 PM   #4
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Ok, I see,

The opening was formed too small for your 8' doors. The opening should have been wider. There should have been space to install 2x6 lumber down and to the floor. Then the jamb trim board is installed over that. So, about 8'-0" + 3" (2x6 PT) + 1-1/2" (Trim boards) = 8'-4 1/2".

You can still use 2x6 PT for the jambs. You may also still be able to use the composite material trim boards over them.

If you choose to use only the PT lumber for the jambs, you can select some good clean pieces, sand them down, allow to fully season (dry out), prior to staining and painting.

Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 04-01-2008 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:45 PM   #5
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Example (PT spliced in on the left & right side of garage door) Notice, that we did the same thing with the entry door opening (those are not structural jack-studs that we spliced, they are build-in nailers for the door opening):


Jamb-trim boards and casings installed over that:


Here, several layers of 2 x 6, are about to be removed along with other rotted materials. This area rots out in 99.9% of garage openings, when KD grade lumber is used. We spliced in PT lumber. As with your garage, the area is non load-bearing. It builds-in the garage opening, and serves as a nailing surface for the door trim-boards (Jamb-trim and casing). Realize too, that the garage-door weather-seal strips get attached over the jamb-trim boards, as well.


We installed all PT lumber in the lower areas, incuding PT plywood sheathing. Used galvanized nails and water and ice shield membrane over the lower areas. All the Finished materials (trim boards) are composite AZEK boards with polyeruthane caulking. Some upper white areas are vinyl trim (no wood used):


Thought I'd post the pictures to let you see what I was writing about, and what the option of using composite materials can look like.

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Old 04-01-2008, 05:52 PM   #6
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Completed installation of all new composite and vinyl white trim (No paintwork needed or done per Client request):


Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 04-01-2008 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:18 PM   #7
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Hi:

Thanks again for your quick reply and taking the time to assemble and post those pictures. They show your setup very well, and your treatment across the top looks very nice.

Quick question: I'll of course put casing around the exterior of the garage; do you generally put casing on the interior also?

The designer we hired to draw up our plans specified an 8'3" opening in the foundation walls for the garage door. Our concrete guys weren't the best, and the opening's closer to 8'2". That's why I was thinking about using this 5/4 Lifespan product to trim out the inside of the opening.

I take it the PT lumber you spliced in at the bottom sides of the garage door opening was rated for ground contact? This Lifespan stuff is pressure treated (0.27kg/m3 azoles), but probably not to the extent of traditional PT lumber. (My rough, and possibly incorrect, math makes that come out to around 0.0185 lb./cubic foot, which doesn't seem like much protection if I calculated that right.)

I'd like to use this Lifespan or WindsorOne product if I can, mainly because the Azek is twice as expensive. The lumber guy I talked to today seemed to think the Lifespan could be installed down to the slab/driveway since the driveway slopes away from the garage opening. Perhaps I could leave it an eighth of an inch from the slab/driveway.

Thanks again for your help.

Shawn Marshall
Portland, Oregon
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:13 AM   #8
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


Hi Shawn,

There generally is not casing installed on the interior side of the garage door. Also: If you are going to have "over head" (roll-up) garage doors, that is another reason to have room for 2x6 lumber on each side. You need room to install 2x4's on the flat (on the interior sides of the door), to attach the door's track system onto. That is standard garage building technique (garages with frost walls).
We usually leave enough room to install 2 (2x4/2x6) PER each side of the door opening, to allow the arrangement for the door track. There are different size garage doors. My suggestion at this point is this: Who is going to install your garage door? Get them over there before you do anything else. Have them tell you what they will need, and where they will need it. Trust me, even they will appreciate the call, as they want to "slap" that door right in, without any issues.

As far as PT lumber. There are actually different ratings for the lumber. Standard grade PT Lumber should suffice for that area.

In terms of what material to use for the trim. That is up to you. I don't see a problem with using the lifeSpan product in the application that you wish to use it in, based on the maufacture's statements of it's durability.
BTW: Windsor one is not rated as rot and pest resistant, tho, it is a beautiful, quality trim material.

Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 04-02-2008 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:26 PM   #9
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Hi:

We ordered a Clopay door with installation through Home Depot. Their contractor came out a month ago to look things over and told us some prep info, but we didn't write it down and I don't remember it all. I have seen illustrations that show the 2x4s or 2x6s installed flat to the inside to mount the track to, but I don't remember him mentioning that.

I'll see if we can get him to come by again, but this time we'll write and draw out exactly what we have to do.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

Shawn Marshall
Portland, Oregon
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:40 PM   #10
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Hi:

We had the garage door installer come out yesterday, and he went over the details and answered the questions I had. I took notes and made a drawing, so I think we're on the same page with the jamb and exterior.

But now I have a question on the interior. Similar to the photos you've posted, the framed walls of our garage sit on the foundation stem walls, about 12" above the garage slab. My original intent was to screw drywall to the wall framing and extend it down over the stemwalls to maybe 3/4" above the slab, then cover the gap with vinyl cove moulding.

The garage door installer said that he rarely saw people do that. He said most people terminate the drywall even with the sill plate and then just paint the visible interior stemwall. He was concerned about the drywall being in contact with the cement stemwall. I was thinking I could use fiberglass-backed drywall if that was an issue, though I'd prefer not to use it for the complete wall, but I don't know if you can mix fiberglass-backed drywall with paper-backed drywall.

Although this is just a garage, I've put a lot of work into building almost all of it myself, so I want it to be nice inside. I like the idea of having the drywall extend to the floor.

If I have to furr out all the walls to separate the drywall from the stemwall, though, I'd probably opt to just terminate the drywall at the sill plate. But then what would you do with the bottom edge of the drywall?

Thanks.

Shawn Marshall
Portland, Oregon
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:23 PM   #11
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P/T Lumber-Ground vs. Concrete


I would not suggest that you install sheetrock over the frost walls like that. It just isn't done (as mentioned to you already). There are several reasons for that. The most important is because of the inherent moisture content of concrete. Another reason is because garages are often used for: Swinging car doors, lawn equipment, tools, ladders, etc. The walls can get "banged up" a bit.
Now, on the other hand, I think you mentioned other uses for your garage.
By the looks of your pictures, that area seems to receive alot of moisture.

Here are some options to consider:

In a dry garage: Densarmor - paperless sheetrock.

Densarmor - Abuse guard paperless sheetrock: http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=6353

FRP: Fiberglass reinforced panels.

Pressure treated plywood. Stained white.

Leave the concrete and paint it.

Those are some options off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others out there. I'd encourage you to consider a non sheetrock material.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:39 PM   #12
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I like the Azek and similar products. One thing to remember though is that the manufacturers recommend you do not paint it with dark colors as it will heat up more and flex more than wood. I replaced the siding on my brother's workshop with hardiplank and we used azek brick mold around the garage door and painted it brown not thinking about it. It gets sun all day long and it took no time at all to separate the caulking at the miters. He repainted it white and solved the problem.
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:45 PM   #13
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Just saw a couple days ago that sherwin williams now has a paint which allows you to paint cellular vinyl darker colors without negative consequences.

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