Opening Ceiling Joist for Recessed Light

DAKRO · 12-29-2011, 09:36 PM

I am remodeling a bathroom which includes plan to install 2 recessed lights over bath tub area. As luck has it, a ceiling joist runs lengthwise immediately over the tub so not enough open space to move it around in existing space to accommodate my objective. I’ve searched the web, but haven’t really found what I think is my situation. For example, opening for attic stairway would probably be overkill. I’ve also seen references suggesting I don’t even need any double framing just for recessed lights. I don’t want to do anything unsafe or that doesn’t meet code.

Here’s the description (I have also included a drawing of current and my proposed solution for comments). I want to open a single ceiling joist over the tub to allow installation of two 4” HALO Original Construction recessed lights – they will be approx. 30” apart on centers. My joists are 2” x 6” on 16” centers. This is single floor so no storage or walking in attic area. Roof is what I would call regular construction (no manufactured trusses) and peak is slightly beyond the load bearing wall at the center of the house where these joists bear and then overlap with others for the other front half of the house. As a result, there are no braces of any type projecting up from any of these joists to support the roof structure. The walls between the sink and tub area and tub to toilet area I am calling non-load bearing, but they are built with the same structure as the load bearing walls at either end of the joists - the ceiling joists rest on them and are attached to them – one provides path for tub and shower piping and the other contains a pocket door (but with very large header above it for strength), but technically not the official load bearing walls for the joists.

My questions are:
1) based on my drawing, is this the correct general approach?
2) do I need to double the new joists all the way from outside wall to center load bearing wall or is it adequate to double just across the semi-load bearing walls on either end of bathtub section (6 feet versus 14 feet plus difficulty of getting the new joists up there in position)?
3) This still seems like quite a bit of framing so can I cut back on any of the other headers around the recessed lights as shown in drawing without creating problems?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

AndyGump · 12-29-2011, 09:51 PM

From your description and drawing it seems a bit over-kill but will work just fine and is within conventional construction.

Go for it.

Andy.

TarheelTerp · 12-29-2011, 10:00 PM

Don't forget to use the WP trims

DAKRO · 12-29-2011, 10:18 PM

Yes, by all means. I should have mentioned that just to make sure it was understood. Thanks for reminder though.

DK

DAKRO · 12-29-2011, 10:23 PM

AndyGump,

Good to hear, but can you help me understnad which things are the "overkill" based on your experience - I'm not sure which are more or less imporatnt than others. Also, don't most other solutions such as for attic steps and similar assume the new joists have to go the entire length of the ones they are attached to? That's another piece of this I can't seem to find any detail on. I'm like you though - that part would seem to have been too much, but I'm still learning on this one.

Thanks
Dwayne

**Gary in WA** · 12-31-2011, 03:38 PM

Not to leave you hanging....

R802.9 Framing of openings. Openings in roof and ceiling framing shall be framed with header and trimmer joists. When the header joist span does not exceed 4 feet (1219 mm), the header joist may be a single member the same size as the ceiling joist or rafter. Single trimmer joists may be used to carry a single header joist that is located within 3 feet (914 mm) of the trimmer joist bearing. When the header joist span exceeds 4 feet (1219 mm), the trimmer joists and the header joist shall be doubled and of sufficient cross section to support the ceiling joists or rafter framing into the header. Approved hangers shall be used for the header joist to trimmer joist connections when the header joist span exceeds 6 feet (1829 mm). Tail joists over 12 feet (3658 mm) long shall be supported at the header by framing anchors or on ledger strips not less than 2 inches by 2 inches (51 mm by 51 mm). From: http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par030.htm

Check with you local AHJ if still worried.

Gary

DAKRO · 12-31-2011, 05:34 PM

Thanks for the feedback everyone and "GBR in WA", you clarified my remaining questions (had to reconfirm a couple of definitions first). I think I now understand where the "overkill" was in my propsed design and will proceed accordingly. Really appreciate having resources available from this group when I need some guidance. THANKS!

TurboDIYer · 12-31-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAKRO

I am remodeling a bathroom which includes plan to install 2 recessed lights over bath tub area. As luck has it, a ceiling joist runs lengthwise immediately over the tub so not enough open space to move it around in existing space to accommodate my objective. I’ve searched the web, but haven’t really found what I think is my situation. For example, opening for attic stairway would probably be overkill. I’ve also seen references suggesting I don’t even need any double framing just for recessed lights. I don’t want to do anything unsafe or that doesn’t meet code.

Here’s the description (I have also included a drawing of current and my proposed solution for comments). I want to open a single ceiling joist over the tub to allow installation of two 4” HALO Original Construction recessed lights – they will be approx. 30” apart on centers. My joists are 2” x 6” on 16” centers. This is single floor so no storage or walking in attic area. Roof is what I would call regular construction (no manufactured trusses) and peak is slightly beyond the load bearing wall at the center of the house where these joists bear and then overlap with others for the other front half of the house. As a result, there are no braces of any type projecting up from any of these joists to support the roof structure. The walls between the sink and tub area and tub to toilet area I am calling non-load bearing, but they are built with the same structure as the load bearing walls at either end of the joists - the ceiling joists rest on them and are attached to them – one provides path for tub and shower piping and the other contains a pocket door (but with very large header above it for strength), but technically not the official load bearing walls for the joists.

My questions are:
1) based on my drawing, is this the correct general approach?
2) do I need to double the new joists all the way from outside wall to center load bearing wall or is it adequate to double just across the semi-load bearing walls on either end of bathtub section (6 feet versus 14 feet plus difficulty of getting the new joists up there in position)?
3) This still seems like quite a bit of framing so can I cut back on any of the other headers around the recessed lights as shown in drawing without creating problems?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

I apologize for getting off topic but what did you use to draw that??

Missouri Bound · 12-31-2011, 10:03 PM

Dakro...I'd like to know as well....what did you use for the drawing?

Anti-wingnut · 12-31-2011, 11:10 PM

I don't have a book handy. Is that a legal light location?

Missouri Bound · 12-31-2011, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-wingnut

I don't have a book handy. Is that a legal light location?

100% legal if a WP fixture is used.

Anti-wingnut · 12-31-2011, 11:24 PM

Yea, i found a source, and I'w wrong.

I don't think it needs to be WP. It's hard to find WP can lights

Missouri Bound · 12-31-2011, 11:29 PM

I mis-spoke (er...mis-typed). The fixture itself does not need to be WP. The cover is usually surface mount with a gasket....the one I have used has a 3 bolt attackment, not the spring type. The gasket provides protection from water infiltration.

jbfan · 01-01-2012, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarheelTerp

Don't forget to use the WP trims

Never mind. I should read the thread before I answer.

DAKRO · 01-01-2012, 01:21 AM

Let me address both questions. First, for drawing I still use an old program called VISIO 2000 by VISIO Corp. Although my vesion is not Microsoft, Microsoft purchased the product later in 2000 and they have probably introduced several more recent versions of the product since then. I use it for planning and documenting all of my projects at home and have actually documented almost everything I have come in contact with here at home over recent years including water lines, electrical lines, structure, plants, trees, drain lines, decking so that everything I know about, either visible and invisible is available to me when I take on something new. It's been a great program with all of its tools.

Regarding my lighting for this area, I am using HALO H199ICT cans that are airtight, new construction, and IC rated. These are good for wet applications and although the design hasn't changed, the newest versions now carry the designation of H199ICAT where the "A" more clearly identifies the airtight rating. For a trim, I am using HALO 951PS which is one of two or three they have for wet or shower applications. In addition, I am then using HALO H1999 ceramic extender socket and then a PAR20 50W Halogen floodlight which provides the maximum wattage and illumination for this can. I have used this in a shower area and it works great, but you have to consider the fact that the wattage is a little limited so can't be used in a large area. I originally needed it for a restricted overhead area, but now will carry it into the tub area because I like the small size for the looks. Hope this answers your questions and by all means, let me know if you find that this information is incorrect.