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Old 11-18-2009, 09:27 AM   #61
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Not loving the basement pole


Joe,

In an orthogonal stress system, a flitch plate is only effective in the vertical. It requires the "protection" of the wooden laminations to resist stresses parallel to its length, and perpendicular to this. For this reason, they should be used carefully. Flitch plates are almost unheard of in the more seismically stringent areas of the American Cordillera.

That is why when I read that the engineer had specified two "C" channels, I knew that he needed to resist a number of stress vectors which a flitch beam was wholly inadequate to resist.

I hope you are able to use this as a learning experience. When an engineer specifies an involved structural shape, such as these doubled sistered "C" channels, it is likely that simple plates will not have the strength in multiple directions to be substituted for these other pieces of iron.

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-wingnut View Post
Joe,

In an orthogonal stress system, a flitch plate is only effective in the vertical. It requires the "protection" of the wooden laminations to resist stresses parallel to its length, and perpendicular to this. For this reason, they should be used carefully. Flitch plates are almost unheard of in the more seismically stringent areas of the American Cordillera.

That is why when I read that the engineer had specified two "C" channels, I knew that he needed to resist a number of stress vectors which a flitch beam was wholly inadequate to resist.
Are you saying that a flitch plate will only work sandwiched in between 2x's or lvl's or bolted on the outside of an existing girder like I've done many times, but it will not work being bolted or welded like I asked on the inside of an I-beam?

I've seen engineers spec something on a plan and when it was questioned it wasn't the best possible solution before. An example was when he had an I-beam across a new kitchen with a column right in the middle of a counter top. The Architect had the column wrapped to make it look good. I thought it was nuts and so did the GC.

I asked if there was some way we could install a flush beam perpendicular to the beam and get rid of the column. After a few days the engineer came back with a perpendicular C- channel with the I-beam welded and bolted into it. It worked, no more column in the middle of a new kitchen counter top.

My point is that I can suggest something from past experience or question something if I want. I will never question the size of a beam that is spec'd because that';s not my job, I will however question something because of the different ways I've seen steel beams installed.

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I hope you are able to use this as a learning experience. When an engineer specifies an involved structural shape, such as these doubled sistered "C" channels, it is likely that simple plates will not have the strength in multiple directions to be substituted for these other pieces of iron.
I can't say that I have learned something from that because I wasn't told from his engineer that this is the only possible solution. If I heard from his engineer that what I suggested would never work, then I did learn something. Until then I'm not convinced that what I suggest wouldn't work. Are you an Engineer?

It's like framing and using all kinds of structural beams, some big, some small, some having to be a specific height because it has to be the same size as the joists. There are many options both wood and steel.

Also, like I said in my previous post, I will never give anyone sizes of beams to use whether they're using wood or steel. Alot people come here and ask for this and there are people her who respond with answers and sizes which I find ridiculous. No one here can give sizes out without seeing the project.

I always suggest to people to get an architect or engineer. You could be an engineer, but you're not the person who's asking questions engineer. So spitting out sizes is useless, making suggestions and telling people to seek professional help is nit useless.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:06 AM   #63
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Joe,

What I'm saying is that by definition, a flitch plate is a steel flat bar used in a composite with wood. When you propose adding a steel flat bar to the web of an "I" beam, that is refered to as a doubler.

Certainly in the OP's scenerio, a doubler could have been used. I have been on several jobs where we added flat bar doublers. Problem was that they were required to be substantial, like 1"x 8" x 12'. Structural shapes can give you much more strength at a much lower weight. More weight = more material cost + more more manpower.
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:19 AM   #64
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Here is another update for those that are following this post...

Engineer sent me his drawing this morning, which comes with his official seal. So thats what I needed for the house file.

So he spec'd 2 17.5 ft C9X13.4 steel channels.

I priced around for the channels and best price was $275 each with free delivery. So I have ordered them and they will arrive on Monday.

From there I have arranged a buddy to come over and get the welding done.

So I have learned a ton on this one and thanks to all of the input. I hope someone else can learn from this. My best advice is to hire the engineer and dont waste time with anything else. They know what they are doing and in the end should be able to design a workable solution.

I'll post a few more pics when the post finally loses this battle.

Cheers

Dave
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:26 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-wingnut View Post
Joe,

What I'm saying is that by definition, a flitch plate is a steel flat bar used in a composite with wood. When you propose adding a steel flat bar to the web of an "I" beam, that is refered to as a doubler.

Certainly in the OP's scenerio, a doubler could have been used. I have been on several jobs where we added flat bar doublers. Problem was that they were required to be substantial, like 1"x 8" x 12'. Structural shapes can give you much more strength at a much lower weight. More weight = more material cost + more more manpower.
So your answer to my suggestion is yes, that it can be done. It would cost more material and labor.

That's all you had to say the first time. You never answered me, are you an Engineer?
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:07 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Joe Carola View Post
So your answer to my suggestion is yes, that it can be done. It would cost more material and labor.

That's all you had to say the first time. You never answered me, are you an Engineer?


Well, I'm sorry Joe. But it gets to the point that something isn't practical, so why answer to it. Dave could have replaced the lower steel beam with a glu-lam like Joan was shrieking about. Then he would have had to dig out the basement another two feet, maybe three.

Not an engineer, heavy and commercial construction for more than thirty years. And fortunate be have been trained and taught by some great pipefitters, electricians, carpenters, boilermakers, engineers and even a physicist.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:55 PM   #67
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Most of us do this for fun. (some times the competitive juices get going)

It's always good to know the outcome-Kind of like finding out 'who dun it'
at the end of a good book.---MIKE--
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:26 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Clee View Post
Here is another update for those that are following this post...

Cheers

Dave

Thanks for posting your follow through on this topic. I've seen your question come up a lot on the DIY boards. It almost always garners the answer of "forget it". It's nice to see that at least in some cases it's a very doable project.
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by walkman View Post
Thanks for posting your follow through on this topic. I've seen your question come up a lot on the DIY boards. It almost always garners the answer of "forget it". It's nice to see that at least in some cases it's a very doable project.
It's just about always doable. It's just that the usual homeowner want to try it with balsa wood and a prayer.
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:54 PM   #70
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Is the two channels to be welded to each side of the beam?
Show us some after pics.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Clee View Post
Here is another update for those that are following this post...

So he spec'd 2 17.5 ft C9X13.4 steel channels.

I priced around for the channels and best price was $275 each with free delivery. So I have ordered them and they will arrive on Monday.
Dave, I've been following the thread, I'm glad you got the engineer and the solutions you were looking for. I would love to see pics when you are done.

I have a question for you though, how are you going to get 2 nearly 18' long steel channels into the basement and into position?

Basement garage? Walk-out? I'm just thinking there is no chance I could get that beam into my basement. Good Luck!
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:48 AM   #72
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I just wanted to thank Dave for posting this thread. I've gleaned some really valuable lessons from your situation. Thanks to Daniel Holzman for mentioning the necessary telepost and posting the link for info. I recently hired a structural engineer to do some drawings up for some work I need done in a similar-ish situation. Anyway, $700 bucks poorer and he NEVER mentioned the correct grade of telepost! (I would have ended up with one of those "temporary" grade posts he warned of) So now I will be phoning this engineer back and asking for more info.
Thanks again Dave & looking forward to seeing the finished product!
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:38 PM   #73
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Well its been a week or so since an upate but we are now well on our way to pulling the pole out of the basement. With engineer specs in hand, 2 17.5 ft 9inch c channels showed up last week. They definitely werent light On top of that I decided to gut this side of the basement and turn it into a really cool spot. So once I cleared away all of the demo and started working on putting the beams in place. I was able to fit the beams thru a basment window and get them in place on the floor.

Demo Time


Then once that was cleaned it was beam time



Once the beams were in the right location, I built a support structure that allowed to be "walk" up each side of the beam until it was close to being the right height.


From there it was a matter of me lifting up each side and then having my wife screw the support 2X6's to rest it on. When each beam was within a foot of height, I flipped them to stand on edge and used a bit more shoulder power to put them in place.


Once the beams were in a few inches of butting up underneath the floor joices I used jack posts to adjust them up the last few inches.



So now they are up tight against the joices and are ready for the welder who is coming on Wed..



So at this point the support pole knows its days are numbered

The support structure I built worked great as it allowed me to do most of the work with only the help of my wife. Which meant I wasnt waiting on friends to get the beams in place.
I started sat aft and had both of them in place by 10pm that night

Here is a breakdown of cost to date with regards to this project..

Engineer Design - $350
Steel - $650 (both pieces)
Labor - free
Welding - $250

Hope this thread helps all future home owners who are sick of looking at that certain pole. We all have em...For me it had to go. Looking forward to removing it this week.

Will show a photo once that is done.


Cheers

Dave

Last edited by Dave Clee; 11-30-2009 at 04:40 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:21 PM   #74
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Lookin' good
They had a guy on TV the other night that was building a smaller stonehenge
He was moving 10 ton blocks around & up into the air using just blocking & 2x's
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:28 PM   #75
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Not sure about 10 tons, but each of the beams were approx 230lbs and I was only lifting one side at a time. Was pretty beat by end of evening.

I have to say it looks great now, all together it looks like one massive beam !!

Cant wait to get the post out and start working on the rest of the project.

Cheers

Dave

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Lookin' good
They had a guy on TV the other night that was building a smaller stonehenge
He was moving 10 ton blocks around & up into the air using just blocking & 2x's

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