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Old 11-13-2009, 04:14 PM   #46
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Not loving the basement pole


I know that scuba dave, but it sure will help, you really can never have too much beam and when you may be worried about drywall cracks and such and since the house has probably gotton used to it the way it is, it sure would'nt hurt to give it a little extra support, before you go taking out a pole. Again these are just ideas and you need to ask the structural engineer.

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Old 11-13-2009, 04:19 PM   #47
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The steel beam may already be sufficiently large to carry the load, your engineer will make the appropriate analysis and determine whether the beam is adequate as is or will require upgrading to handle the load. In the event that the beam does need to be upsized, you have a very reasonable option. Since the bottom side of the beam is exposed, you could have a steel plate welded to the bottom of the beam in the critical moment area, which would be approximately the middle third of the beam. Your engineer will be able to design the correct size of plate, the required size of weld, and the required coverage zone.

This would convert your beam into a built up section, very commonly used on bridges. The cost should be reasonable, certainly compared to installing a new beam, and there would be limited disruption of the basement.

The concept of adding a pair of wood 2x8's to the beam does not work in this particular case because the modulus of elasticity of steel is about 28 million versus about 1.8 million for wood, making the steel about 25 times as stiff as wood. If you were able to bolt on a pair of wood "wings", you would add almost nothing to the effective moment of inertia of the steel beam, because the steel beam flexes so little that the strength in the 2x8 "wings" would never get mobilized. Your structural engineer can explain this to you in detail if you are interested in the theory of composite structural elements. Adding a steel cover plate works because the modulus of elasticity of the cover plate is the same as that of the steel beam, so the two work together, and you gain a large amount of effective moment of inertia.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:26 PM   #48
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personal attacks will not be tolerated, even if a generalization
I let it go the 1st time

Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 11-13-2009 at 05:47 PM. Reason: stop with the attitude
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:33 PM   #49
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Hey guys, lets keep this thread on a positive note...Joan, you have mentioned the wooden solution a few times. Message received loud and clear.
Some one mentioned the "nice flooring"...Actually they suck..Its cheap laminate that was there when we bought the place..Horrible for winters as they didnt use a sub floor so the floor is cold as hell. The plan is to rip up the floor and put a very nice quality carpet with a plush underlay. Flooding is not a problem here so no worries about going with carpet.

If worst case I could only move the pole 2' closer to the wall that would be a compromise I could live with..I realise now that I would have to pour a new footing but I'd do it...Never done it b4 but hey its something new to try

The pole must not win.....every time my cue hit it I would feel a sense of defeat..

Thanks again

Dave
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:56 PM   #50
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You are welcome.
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:57 PM   #51
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I'm sure the engineer will give you clear structural drawings of what you will need to do. What he may not give you would be the architectural details of what you will need. These are pretty simple:
1) Protect your steel structure with a fire rated assembly. In other words drywall, probably 5/8 type X.
2) Maintain 6'8" of headroom.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dave Clee View Post
If worst case I could only move the pole 2' closer to the wall that would be a compromise I could live with..I realise now that I would have to pour a new footing but I'd do it...Never done it b4 but hey its something new to try

The pole must not win.....every time my cue hit it I would feel a sense of defeat..
On mine, the engineer spec'd a 2' x 2' x 2' deep hole. The depth was contingent on undisturbed soil. If the soil was "loose" I would have needed to keep going. I poured 1' of reinforced concrete and let it sit for 28 days. A sked 40 column was then installed with the screw side down (the wings on the jack screw keep it from loosening one it's encased in concrete). The rest of the hole was then filled with concrete. If your engineer OK's the relocation, I suspect his guidance will be along the same lines as this. FYI, everything I got from the engineer was verbal. Had I wanted drawings, the cost would have doubled.

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Old 11-17-2009, 02:32 PM   #53
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Quick update.

I met with the engineer this afternoon and he took his time with the calculations. Went into the attic to ensure roof load didnt come into his calculations etc etc. At the end it appears I have 2 very workable options.
Option 1 - Run a 2nd beam beside it all of the way, essentially doubling my load capacity. Cost of the beam plus the poles should be under $1000.

Option 2 - Run 2 pieces of thick channeling on each side of the existing beam and tack weld in place. This option requires no additional poles, a bit more cost in steel but I have a friend who is a welder that would be able to do this for me fairly easily.

He also tackled the math on the floor load and deemed I was well within spec for the 2X2 concrete pad as he took into account that it was clay underneath.

After determing the load on the beam it appears that without that pole it would be VERY close to maximum spec. So the channeling will put me back in the green.

The engineer should have his plans to me in a few days and I can then get to buying what I need. Either way I will have to redo that bullkhead but I dont mind as I was already contemplating redoing the ceiling as I hate the popcorn look. Plus I would take the opportunity to redo the recessed lighting design

Thank again for everyone's help. It was much appreciated.

I will also say that the pole looked very nervous this afternoon and it finally believes its days are numbered.

Once I start, I start another thread and keep you guys posted.

Cheers

Dave
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #54
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I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned that you can add a flitch plate on each side of the existing girder bolted spanning the whole length? One side would be on the foundation and the other side would need a footing underneath.
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:56 PM   #55
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hey Joe, I have no idea what a flitch plate is BUT option # 2 has me installing these channels the full length of the beam on both sides of it.

Cheers

Dave

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I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned that you can add a flitch plate on each side of the existing girder bolted spanning the whole length? One side would be on the foundation and the other side would need a footing underneath.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:15 PM   #56
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hey Joe, I have no idea what a flitch plate is BUT option # 2 has me installing these channels the full length of the beam on both sides of it.

Cheers

Dave
Dave,

A flitch plate is a steel plate. If you have 3- 2x10's for a girder for example, you can have a plate that's 1/2" x 9-1/2" cut the full length of your girder. When properly sized for what you want, you might only need one, if not you can put one on each side. I do this all the time.

In your case since you have a dropped girder you could have it cut to length and pre-drilled holes and slap it up against your existing girder and use the holes as a guide to drill thought the girder whether you use one or two.

There's a company called "Better Header" who will make any size flitch plate you need that can be sandwiched between 2x's or lvl's or any size I-beams. This has nothing to do with your project, but the first link shows some good pictures of what the flitch plates look like. Maybe a flitch plate might work since it's so narrow, maybe not.

http://www.betterheader.com/

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives...ac-5-10-07.pdf

Sorry Dave, I didn't see or read that you already had an I-beam. Maybe you can get a flitch plate to sit inside of it and bolt or weld?
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Last edited by Joe Carola; 11-17-2009 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:19 PM   #57
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Dave--Bingo-I hoped the channel would be the solution -Add to that a welder in the group---

Looks likes you get to play pool with out using a short stick. Very good--MIKE--
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:45 PM   #58
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I was very happy when I heard the options. There is still a fair bit of work involved but its all doable and the post's days are numbered. I think I am going to take my time on this project and do it right.

But the end result should hopefully be very nice.

Cheers

Dave

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Dave--Bingo-I hoped the channel would be the solution -Add to that a welder in the group---

Looks likes you get to play pool with out using a short stick. Very good--MIKE--
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:15 PM   #59
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Joe,

Dave already has an engineered solution, why all the second guessing of your own specious ideas, unless you have a PE after your name. It is obvious that the real PE is doubling on two channels not only to increase the thickness of the web, but to also make the flanges much more stout.

A flitch plate only increases the strength in the vertical, parallel to the web. In a flitch, rigidity perpendicular to the plate is provided by the wooden laminations. It could almost be thought of as a I- beam with a steel web and wooden flanges. If the PE had thought that a flat- bar bolted to the web was an adequate addition, he would have designed it so. Instead he has specified a much more rigorous addition.

This kind of second guessing accomplishes nothing, especially when you do not even bother to read all the posts.

Leave the professional engineering to the professional engineers
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:37 PM   #60
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Joe,

Dave already has an engineered solution, why all the second guessing of your own specious ideas, unless you have a PE after your name. It is obvious that the real PE is doubling on two channels not only to increase the thickness of the web, but to also make the flanges much more stout.

A flitch plate only increases the strength in the vertical, parallel to the web. In a flitch, rigidity perpendicular to the plate is provided by the wooden laminations. It could almost be thought of as a I- beam with a steel web and wooden flanges. If the PE had thought that a flat- bar bolted to the web was an adequate addition, he would have designed it so. Instead he has specified a much more rigorous addition.

This kind of second guessing accomplishes nothing, especially when you do not even bother to read all the posts.

Leave the professional engineering to the professional engineers
Hey Wingnut,

I wasn't second guessing anything. I'm also not playing engineer. All I offered was one way to do something like I have done many times. So I didn't read all the posts. I"m not an Engineer nor claim to be. I gave a suggestion that's all. A PE isn't God and maybe his PE didn't think of it and there are more then one way to do something that's all.

I don't come here and design anyhting for people here. I will suggest things that can be done, but i always end it with telling them they have to get an Archietct or Engineer because no one here can tell them exactly what size piece of steel they need.

I've been a framer for 26 years and have seen many I-beams and flitch plates spec'd many different ways. I don't engineer anything, that's not what I do. I just install them, but I can and will suggest to anyone different ways of doing things no matter what you say. Doesn't take a genius to see that there are many ways of doing something and suggesting those ways isn't causing no harm.

You don't like what I have to say, keep your mouth shut and don't post to me.

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