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Old 11-13-2009, 09:36 AM   #31
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Not loving the basement pole


Yeah the engineer loved the photos as well. He said he has a few ideas that should work in this situation. So looking forward to seeing what he comes up with.

Cheers

Dave

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Originally Posted by oh'mike View Post
Keep us tuned in-The pictures helped a lot-I have some ideas but I think they are best left unsaid.

The engineer should be able to figure this out-Looks like a job that can be done for a lot less than my first guess.

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Old 11-13-2009, 10:50 AM   #32
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Your support is a telescoping adjustable steel column. According to Arlene Puentes, October Home Inspections
http://www.octoberhome.com/articles/...ustcolumn.html
this type of column is not rated for permanent use as a support in the United States, rather it is intended as a temporary support during construction. You should check with your engineer as to the suitability of this particular column for your house, you may find that

1) The column was installed as a temporary measure and is not necessary
2) You need to use a different type of column to support the load
3) Your particular jurisdiction allows the use of telescoping steel columns for permanent support, and you can reuse the column at a different location.
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:31 AM   #33
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It's hard to tell by the pic's but is there a break in the beam above the post? It seems funny that there is another support post so close (the one inside the wall). If there is no break in the beam above the support column and the beam is continous across this span and if it is a W10, I would ask the engineer if the support is even needed. I looks about like a 20' span or so to the support inside the wall. I'm not sure if this beam will span this, but it would certainly be worth asking, It sure would be nice for you if you find out the beam is continous and will support the load without the post, of course you will also have to let him look at what is above it, could be they thru it in for something heavy directly above. If you find out its not really needed, sure would be a lot easier for you and you could just move it next to the other one in the wall and double the support inside the wall where its hidden. Good luck!
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:52 AM   #34
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Not loving the basement pole


Dave -

Keep in mind there are really two different criteria used for a good design.

1. The simplest and easiest to use is just the strength.

2. The second and very often is the deflection (static or dynamic), which can reduce the livability, comfort and increase cracks in walls/drywall. This is not as simple as a strength calculation.

You may find that the strength of what is in there is adequate structurally, but modifications may have been done to make the floors system more livable or salable.

I guarantee that is the post is relocated the floor system above will bounce and react differently. Whether the results are satisfactory for you is a different question.

Dick
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Old 11-13-2009, 12:44 PM   #35
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Concrete masonery, you have a good point, all good questions to ask the engineer, that's why he gets the big bucks. I am building a log home and I know a little about running spans with large timbers, so I just throw ideas out there, another one would be beefing up the beam by building wooden beams ( 3-2x10's or 2x12's with 1/2 plywood glued and tacked between) and putting one on each side of the beam for additional support. Easy to drywall over and you leave the steel intact, of course this is assuming there is no break in the steel beam above the pole, If there is a breakl, that is a whole different ballgame. Just ideas to ask the engineer.
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Old 11-13-2009, 12:47 PM   #36
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Very good points on the floor above/bounce etc
I went to the next higher I-joist in my great room ceiling/attic floor to make sure I had the min deflection
It wasn't a matter of meeting code, I wanted to minimize or eliminate any drywall cracking on the ceiling

So make sure the deflection is taken into account on any changes
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:20 PM   #37
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Man there are some really good posts on this and I really appreciate all of them.
The beam is definitely once piece, there is no break in it. Its 17' long and is 8 inches high.

These sort of posts are considered "code" up here in Canada. Every house has them.

The pole is there I believe b/c it supports that upper beam which is directly supporting my dining room wall upstairs which also carries up to the 2nd level veranda off the bedrooms..I would of thought the post would of been directly under where the 2 beams meet BUT it isnt.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Cheers

Dave
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:40 PM   #38
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Great detailed reply here, I guess what it comes down to is making sure that if I did move that pole the house isnt going to cave in over time..

I'm pretty sure that if I removed that pole things would be okay...BUT I am also smart enough to realise that decision is out of my league.

Usually when that is the case, I head to the internet to gain some knowledge. This site looked great and is now definitely in my favourites.

You guys have lead me in the right direction, which was to bring a professional in to assess. You have also given me enough knowledge to allow me to ask the right questions. So thanks for that

I am interested now to see what it will take.

Ever since we bought the house, I hated that pole. But we never used this side of the basement so it wasnt a problem. Now that time has come.

Who will win...?? The pole or the me ?? Well we should find out shortly..

I was sitting down there last night trying to visualize some of the design I wanted to do and it appeared to be laughin at me..lol..But once I stripped its casing away it knew I was serious...

thanks again

Dave




Quote:
Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
Dave -

Keep in mind there are really two different criteria used for a good design.

1. The simplest and easiest to use is just the strength.

2. The second and very often is the deflection (static or dynamic), which can reduce the livability, comfort and increase cracks in walls/drywall. This is not as simple as a strength calculation.

You may find that the strength of what is in there is adequate structurally, but modifications may have been done to make the floors system more livable or salable.

I guarantee that is the post is relocated the floor system above will bounce and react differently. Whether the results are satisfactory for you is a different question.

Dick
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:55 PM   #39
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Not loving the basement pole


Keep in mind the "code" is just the minimum to build to and get a permit and approval, but it is necessarily the right or best way.

There are tons of code tables around for strength but they rarely give deflections since it is not just something that a framer or code inspector is qualified to evaluate.

Very often, a plan is approved and is inspected for compliance with the "codes" and standards. In many cases, the builder or seller has experience and is interested in doing it right after discovering that what was approved was not really adequate from a use or saleability standpoint so modifications were made and the inspector would not be concerned since it appeared to be better. No one will argue with something that appears better.

I have seen this in numerous developments where all similar homes were modified.

Dick

Last edited by concretemasonry; 11-13-2009 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:59 PM   #40
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The pole is awkward, I agree, I forgot to mention, when you build the 2x beams, the plywood is to make them wide enough to set on 3-1/2 x5-1/2 posts inside the walls ( its called a 4x6) I would definitely ask the engineer if beefing up the beam would work, you've come this far. I really want to see you get rid of that pole.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:53 PM   #41
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O.K. Once again, boy you really got me thinking, today, Hey I can hire the brawn, you can't fix stupid ( as Ron White says lol) Since you said the steel beam is only 8" you could also build the beams out of 2x8's so as not to loose headroom, if you put 2 of them set on 4x 6 posts, one on each side of the steel beam, my guess would be it would take a bomb to blow that down, but again ask the engineer.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan518 View Post
O.K. Once again, boy you really got me thinking, today, Hey I can hire the brawn, you can't fix stupid ( as Ron White says lol) Since you said the steel beam is only 8" you could also build the beams out of 2x8's so as not to loose headroom, if you put 2 of them set on 4x 6 posts, one on each side of the steel beam, my guess would be it would take a bomb to blow that down, but again ask the engineer.
You think (2) 2x8's can equal the strength of STEEL?
Are you serious ??
Please stop......really
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:57 PM   #43
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Dave, I'm so glad you got an engineer in on this. You'll be glad you did. Please be sure to let us know what he says. We all love this kind of stuff.

If his solution to totally eliminate the post ends up too pricy you might ask him about one lower cost option: Can you move the post over two ft closer to the wall (~6" past the 90 degree beam) and place a new post 2ft from the opposite wall. The end effect is that you would keep the beam span the same, your post would be closer to the 90 degree beam and you would have more center area. Enclose these posts in 2' wide 2x4 or 2x6 half high walls with only the posts (wrapped in the smallest possible column) extending above the level of the top of the pool table to the beam. The posts would hardly ever come into play if done this way.

BTW, any new post locations will need a footing installed so you likely will have to pull up the nice flooring in areas.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:36 PM   #44
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hey scuba dave If you really read what I had to say, you would have seen I did not say remove the steel beam, only beef it up
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:01 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan518 View Post
My guess is 14" was max span on that size beam, if you are determined to move it and since you have already torn it out, I would ask the engineer if you can build your own beam out of either 2x10's or 2x12's using 3 with 1/2" plywood in between glued and nailed. Contractors build a lot of beams this way here. I would think you would just have to go thick enough to carry the load and go ahead and conceal it in the wall and be rid of it. It may be cheaper to build your own. Good luck, let us know what engineer says, I am curious now. lol
2x8's will not add any significant support to a steel beam

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