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Old 03-29-2006, 11:08 PM   #1
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new construction no Brick ledge


Hi, I would like to know when the brick ledge is supposed to be poured. We are building a new home and they have already poured the slab and have started the framing. I noticed today that there is no brick ledge. The house is 60% brick, the front and left side is brick, and the right and back is hardiplank.
Thank you for your help.
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Old 03-30-2006, 12:55 PM   #2
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new construction no Brick ledge


Your house will now be 0% brick.
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Old 03-30-2006, 07:44 PM   #3
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new construction no Brick ledge


You have several options. What I would do in your situation is the following:

First, I would require a 10 year warranty on water penetration, no pro rating, material and labor.

Second, I would require them to use asphaltic coated copper flashing, at least 3oz grade, with premade dams and corners on the sill (at least 12" up the wall) and over all windows and doors. I would require weeps 12" O.C., and require the use of a product similar to Mortar Net to prevent bridging.

Third, I would personally be onsite when the flashing was installed to make sure it was done correctly, and if possible, bring a manufacturers rep or independant inspector along.

If those things are done, you should not have any issues.

You could also force them to stucco and use veneer stone, but that will be much more expensive.
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:19 AM   #4
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new construction no Brick ledge


I think it is not at all clear what is meant by no brick ledge. If there is no place to put the brick you can't have brick veneer. If the shelf was left out but there is room for brick at the top of the foundation wall that is higher than it should have been you can deal with it with careful flashing (WR GRACE Perm-A-Barrier under copper) and show more of the foundation than was intended. It all depends on the detail which is impossible to understand without a scale drawing or a photograph.
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:25 AM   #5
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new construction no Brick ledge


If you read his other thread on the subject, it appears that the contractor did not block out the ledge, but dimensionally it is there.
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:40 AM   #6
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So there is a brick ledge, it's just not below the floor level as it was supposed to be? This is an architectural and waterproofing issue that can not be properly solved without a drawing. I can say a self-adhering flexible flashing turned up BEHIND the sheathing board and turned down the concrete using a water based primer (WB Pimer) on the concrete and copper (not aluminum) protection where it is exposed, is probably called for.
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Old 03-31-2006, 07:46 PM   #7
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new construction no Brick ledge


What exactly do you need a drawing of?
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Old 03-31-2006, 07:51 PM   #8
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http://www.bia.org/BIA/technotes/fig4.gif

This would show the appropriate flashing; just imagine that the area filled with mortar on the ledge is concrete. It is not that unusual or difficult a detail, and is not that big of an issue, provied it is flashed correctly.
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Old 03-31-2006, 10:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough
What exactly do you need a drawing of?
Well, a drawing might tell me if the house is intended to have brick or stone veneer (one thread mentions brick, the other stone), the size of the cavity, if the back-up is block or wood frame, if there is sheathing, the height of the slab above the ground, the thickness and ltype of insulation and the kind of waterproofing or underlayment. I don't know any other way to design than to learn everything there is to know about the original design and the degree of the error and that can only be learned from a drawing. It's just too easy to lead someone astray in these internet forums so I'll leave you to it.
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Old 03-31-2006, 10:47 PM   #10
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new construction no Brick ledge


Regardless of those details, the flashing remains the same. If you have a different opinon, you should voice it.
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough
Regardless of those details, the flashing remains the same. If you have a different opinon, you should voice it.
OK, here is my opinion:
I strongly suggest that Justbeck101 get a local design professional to help sort this and other problems out rather than relying on an incompetent contractor or unprofessional internet forum advice. This is not a DIY project. The cost of a house is too great to approach design problems in such a naive manner.
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:04 AM   #12
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new construction no Brick ledge


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough
You have several options. What I would do in your situation is the following:
First, I would require a 10 year warranty on water penetration, no pro rating, material and labor.
Second, I would require them to use asphaltic coated copper flashing, at least 3oz grade, with premade dams and corners on the sill (at least 12" up the wall) and over all windows and doors. I would require weeps 12" O.C., and require the use of a product similar to Mortar Net to prevent bridging.
Third, I would personally be onsite when the flashing was installed to make sure it was done correctly, and if possible, bring a manufacturers rep or independant inspector along.
If those things are done, you should not have any issues.
You could also force them to stucco and use veneer stone, but that will be much more expensive.
I hate to get into a tit for tat argument but I feel I now have a professional obligation to respond to these recommendations.

(1) An extended warranty will be little comfort. If this detail is going to leak it will probably happen within the normal contractor's warranty period unless it doesn't rain during that time. When it leaks, the contractor would have to tear out all of the brickwork and install better flashing. That better flashing should be done now.

(2) If this is a wood frame structure 3 oz. asphalt -saturated copper-fabric flashing is an inappropriate flashing material. It is difficult to attach and seal to the structure and it cannot form the drip needed at the face of the brickwork creating a path for capilary water movement. I don't know how it would be possible to pre-form corners in this material. 12" o.c. weeps would require cutting every other brick in half so I assume it was a typo. Nothing wrong with cavity screening but that is far from this person's problem at the moment.

(3) If an inspector is to be involved all you need to tell the homeowner is to hire him now, let him design a good detail and ignore all other advice. Of course the contractor should pay for that consultant.

(4) I don't know how stucco would fit on a ledge sized for brick without creating a bigger problem than there already is unless you are suggesting making the house 3" larger.

Justbeck101, your detail is quite unusual. The omission of a brick shelf is a serious error. To prevent water from being drawn into the house by capillary action at the floor level brick joint you MUST get a detail from an experienced design professional familiar with the situation instead of using typical details from a contractor or a web site.

In the past 40 years I have detailed brick veneer buildings for Harvard, IBM, C-M U., NYU Law, Princeton, airport authorities and developers. I don't know everything but I worked with people who collectively did and that led me to never use the same detail twice — there are no standard details in building construction — every building is different.

The worse brick problem I ever had was 30 years ago when water continually entered an IBM office building in Essex Junction, VT because I put the flashing one course higher than the relieving angle without a drip. I spent a lot of time in the basket of a cherry picker trying to solve that leak so I haven't made that mistake again. That detail is similar to yours and I promise you that you would be amazed at the quantity of water that can enter a virtually invisible mortar joint crack and how far it can travel into a building. Don’t rely on standard details and warranties. Fix it now!

I have attached a detail with double flashing and a drip but I have no idea if it is appropriate for your circumstance since I only have the vaguest of hints about the construction configuration. Use it as a starting point, not a solution.

Good luck
Attached Thumbnails
new construction no Brick ledge-brick-detail.jpg  
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Old 04-01-2006, 11:18 AM   #13
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Now that is a good detail.
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Old 04-01-2006, 11:21 AM   #14
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Why the double flashing, though? Won't that just trap moisture into the sheathing?
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Old 04-01-2006, 11:38 AM   #15
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No more than the underlayment (probably Tyvek) would.
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