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moving a load bearing stud

15K views 34 replies 8 participants last post by  Gary in WA 
#1 ·
Trying to enlarge the space in front of (and a bit underneath) of a staircase that runs from 1st floor to 2nd floor. Let me go ahead and supply pics, then explain:





In the first picture, the green lines are the ceiling joists. The red lines are the floor joists. And the yellow circle is a cut stud.

The 2nd pic shows where the stairwell meets a post of some sort (the post is not supporting the floor above), and it also shows where the top plate, the sill for the 2nd floor joists, starts.

If more pictures/demo/information is needed, please tell me.

Anyways, I want to move the far left stud over, to sit underneath the ceiling joist (the last one that is supported by the top plate, the one to the left of the cut stud). What is a method I could use for this? Would it be ok to hammer-fit a new stud in, then toe nail to the plate, and then be able to cut out the old stud?

Yes I know that the studs are not directly over the floor joists. Is this a problem? The bottom plate is nailed directly to the hardwood floor: I'm not even sure if it penetrates and hits the floor joists, but for now the load from the 2nd floor is spread over 4 or 5 true 2x6 floor joists (one floor joist is not supported at midspan currently, and causes a sag). Does it matter if the studs are over them or not? Or is it ok since the bottom plate is hopefully spreading the load evenly?

That leaves me with one more thing though: the stairwell. I'm going to imagine that the post in the 2nd picture is supporting it. Maybe. I may have to tear some more drywall down to figure this out: for all I know, the 2nd floor subfloor is supporting it. But in the end, I want that entire stud section on the left hand side of the 1st pic, gone. There's another ceiling joist (2x6 as well) that is less than a foot or so from the stairs: could I perhaps attach the stairwell to this joist and be happy with life? Or is more information/demo/pictures required before any advice at all is given?

One last thing: structural engineers will give me the best answer, I know, so please don't mention that ;)

Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
Trying to enlarge the space in front of (and a bit underneath) of a staircase that runs from 1st floor to 2nd floor. Let me go ahead and supply pics, then explain:





In the first picture, the green lines are the ceiling joists. The red lines are the floor joists. And the yellow circle is a cut stud.

The 2nd pic shows where the stairwell meets a post of some sort (the post is not supporting the floor above), and it also shows where the top plate, the sill for the 2nd floor joists, starts.

Thanks.
Looking at the old tongue and groove ceiling and finished material covering the stair stringer, it looks to me as if your wall was built after the building was complete!
I've seen this done, when a single family home was converted into a duplex!
If in fact, the wall was a retrofit, its very likely that you can rip it all out of there!
 
#5 ·
What are the dimenions of the beam? Im asking because I dont know that its necessarily a huge load bearing stud.....well, not that much anyway. A single stud alone isnt much help, thus you often see them grouped up or set at 90 degree angles in much the same way an I or H steel beam might look.

One method is to group up more beams, or place them at angles. Think like a Catherdal maker, with flying buttresses and the works. Think about how the weight is transferred down.

One of my problems is that Im replacing the old diagonal placed floor in my bathroom. It frustrates me that non load bearing walls are set atop these 3/4 inch planks, so if you need to replace them its a real pain. Even though the non load bearing walls arent bearing any weight from above, they still weight quite a bit. So the solution to support the wall was to place supporting metal plates/rods in between the joists (in lieu of the subfloor), since we had to remove the diagonal subfloor. I also recommend that you remain critical of all ideas and keep asking questions about weight and load bearing....youll spot weak areas that way. Never assume.
 
#6 ·
Could you post a pic of the floor joists above the yellow circled stud? I'm thinking just hanger those two joists--- up to four feet before you need a doubler.

Be safe, Gary
 
#8 ·
This gives a much better view of your problem! Thanks!

It appears to me that the stair well has been cut in, in the not too distant past!
Using a 2X4 to support the floor joists seems hardly adequate. Makes me wonder what is supporting the wall that you wish to modify, underneath?
I think that there should be a lintel/beam under those floor joists. This in turn, to be supported by posts with adequate support below the floor level.
I'll be interested hear the comments of others! I don't think that a structural engineer was consulted, when the stair well was cut in!
 
#9 ·
From the limited visibility I've had, there are 4 true 2x6 floor joists under the wall: one is currently not supported in midspan (it also happens to the directly under the 2nd floor joist). Right now it looks like a nominal 2x4 plate spread over top of the floor joists, and that's it.
 
#11 ·
Yikes!

Sec. 2326.11.2. Framing Details (cont.). Bearing and exterior wall studs shall be capped with double top plates installed to provide overlapping at corners and at intersections with other partitions. End joints in double top plates must be offset at least 48 inches (2438 mm). EXCEPTION: A single top plate may be used, provided the plate is adequately tied at joints, corners and intersecting walls by at least the equivalent of 3-inch by 6-inch (76 mm by 152 mm) by 0.036-inch-thick (0.90 mm)(20 gage) galvanized steel that is nailed to each wall or segment of wall by six 8d nails or equivalent, provided the rafters, joists or trusses are centered over the studs with tolerance of no more than 1 inch (25 mm).


When bearing studs are spaced at 24-inch (610 mm) intervals and top plates are less than two 2-inch by 6-inch (51 mm by 152 mm) or two 3-inch by 4-inch (76 mm by 102 mm) members and when the floor joists, floor trusses or roof trusses which they support are spaced at more than 16-inch (406 mm) intervals, such joists or trusses shall bear within 5 inches (127 mm) of the studs beneath or a third plate shall be installed.



Be safe, Gary
 
#13 · (Edited)
Its fortunate that you have opened up that wall and exposed these construction faults.
At least you won't be up-stairs and have the floor collapse under you! You now have the opportunity to make corrections.
You will need to place a lintel (beam) under those over-head floor joists! A lintel constructed from 2-2X8's laminated together would probably be adequate! Depends on the span.
You should show us some pics of what is supporting this wall underneath, also!
Don't remove anything until you place a temporary support in position to carry the weight, when the present wall is removed.

One major concern I have is how well the floor joists are supported over the area where the hand-rail is situated. I would advise you to examine this also!
After what we have seen, its frightening to think what else is hidden!
 
#16 ·
A header is a lot of work especially in-place of the top plate, rather than under it..... Why not just add studs under each joist where there is a single top plate?

Be safe, Gary
 
#18 ·
Well what I really wanted to do was just take out the far left stud and stick a new one under the last ceiling joist. My issue was I did not know how to properly do it, and I also do not know where I would anchor the top of the staircase: if I could do it in the next over ceiling joist (not pictured), or what.
 
#20 ·
Of couse my mind changed quite a bit and today I finally stuck some studs under there (yes after 4 months, I'm lazy/distracted).



So all I'm really left now are the joists to the right. It wouldn't make sense to stick studs under there (or else there'd be no way to get to the stairs), and there is only 6ft of headroom _without_ a header.

You can see one of the joists in the pic, and then there's..2 more to the right of it, all nailed to an old rim joist. (the joist in the top right is nailed to the _side_ of this rim joist, as pictured earlier in this topic).

To me, it would see adequate to stick one more stud, under that 3rd joist. The problem is, the stairway rail is directly under it. I really don't want to tear it apart, but I presume I don't have any other option. Does anyone else agree?
 
#23 · (Edited)
Pictures are worth a thousand words I guess. Bear with me, these should show a bit more detail into the rest of the problem:

This picture shows where the rim joist changes. It's very obvious. Please note that this appears to "attached" to the right-hand rim joist, by nothing more than a single nail going through the side of the joist, into the end-grain of the right-hand rim joist. If it's attached to the other one...well I don't know. Note that it does not appear to actually be sitting on the trim piece that runs under the joists.



And here is that joist in relation to the staircase banister. The cable line just so happens to draw the line where I want to sit the stud (On top of the 1st floor joist, under the 2nd floor joist that we're questioning):



I guess the only thing stopping me is the fact that I don't know how to cleanly disassemble the banister. I'm also not entirely certain if the right-hand rim joist is tied to the left-hand rim joist. If so, I may be in a world of hurt if I cut the diagonal stud that runs under the banister, and is tied to a 1x that is next to the new stud in the picture. Who knows if it's carrying a load or not lol.

I'm hoping to stick a stud under there and use it to jack up that joist just a bit (it causes a sag that runs parallel between joists). I'm going to be fighting some old wood though: the joist to the right (not visible) is twisted. Guess it happened over time since the joist I want to shove a stud under, isn't adequately supported (in my eyes).

So basically, I want to stick a stud (maybe two studs: one for that joist, and the other for the old rim joist to level that out) where the banister runs. Dig?
 
#25 ·
Well in any case, I screwed a 2x4 block to the underside of the joist (poor drill bit). Stuck another block on the floor (very close to its midspan support, so I'm good here), and start driving a stud up to jack the joist. Things are slowly leveling out, just gotta figure out how to make it permanent in the end.
 
#26 ·
Just cut back the floor joists enough to attach a header joist above the banister bearing at the last new stud and the landing wall. Double it if needed then add hangers to the floor joists. The pieced rim would stay (alongside) with the new double on the joist side.

Be safe, Gary
 
#29 ·
Awesome. One final question before I do this:

It's going to be a little over 6 and a half feet from bearing point to bearing point. Will a single 2x8 sufficiently carry two joists (after looking carefully, the 3rd joist is actually held up by the exterior wall, so that's one less to worry about), or is doubling the way to go for sure? Thanks.
 
#30 ·
1. What load is above the pieced rim? Another stairs/wall, or stairs/pickets?
2. What is the span of the soon-to-be-shortened-for hangered joists?
3. Are there any point loads on those joists?

Be safe, Gary
 
#31 · (Edited)
1) There are no other loads. Just a rail that keeps you from falling off the 2nd floor (it's open, used a den right now.) I do plan on putting a wall there later on to close the area off, but of course it won't be load bearing at all.

2) 14 feet.

3) Not too sure what you mean, but if it's what it sounds like, the the answer is no. The joists are currently holding up my computer desk and part of my bed, as well as a small closet. There aren't any bearing structures sitting on future hangered joists.

Also, before I forget, in case I have a hard time finding 2x6 rough cut hangers tomorrow, would face-nailing 3 16D nails, through the header joist into the 2x6 joists, be ok for temp use until hangers are installed? Just in case. I'm guessing that's how their held up now, on a hacked together header joist at that.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Well took a shot in the dark. Are you guys ready to see what was _really_ holding up my floor, after we removed the trim (the 2x4 is the temp support)?





My grandfather showed me a lot of things, and we put together a double 2x8 spruce-fir header. Attached joist hangers, added some profanity during the whole ordeal, and voila, this is what we have now:



For now I'm just letting the joists rest in the hangers. Ill attach them to the hangers after they settle in. One more disaster avoided!
 
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