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Tonglebeak 02-17-2010 10:46 PM

moving a load bearing stud
 
Trying to enlarge the space in front of (and a bit underneath) of a staircase that runs from 1st floor to 2nd floor. Let me go ahead and supply pics, then explain:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4...aringstuds.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4544/topplater.jpg

In the first picture, the green lines are the ceiling joists. The red lines are the floor joists. And the yellow circle is a cut stud.

The 2nd pic shows where the stairwell meets a post of some sort (the post is not supporting the floor above), and it also shows where the top plate, the sill for the 2nd floor joists, starts.

If more pictures/demo/information is needed, please tell me.

Anyways, I want to move the far left stud over, to sit underneath the ceiling joist (the last one that is supported by the top plate, the one to the left of the cut stud). What is a method I could use for this? Would it be ok to hammer-fit a new stud in, then toe nail to the plate, and then be able to cut out the old stud?

Yes I know that the studs are not directly over the floor joists. Is this a problem? The bottom plate is nailed directly to the hardwood floor: I'm not even sure if it penetrates and hits the floor joists, but for now the load from the 2nd floor is spread over 4 or 5 true 2x6 floor joists (one floor joist is not supported at midspan currently, and causes a sag). Does it matter if the studs are over them or not? Or is it ok since the bottom plate is hopefully spreading the load evenly?

That leaves me with one more thing though: the stairwell. I'm going to imagine that the post in the 2nd picture is supporting it. Maybe. I may have to tear some more drywall down to figure this out: for all I know, the 2nd floor subfloor is supporting it. But in the end, I want that entire stud section on the left hand side of the 1st pic, gone. There's another ceiling joist (2x6 as well) that is less than a foot or so from the stairs: could I perhaps attach the stairwell to this joist and be happy with life? Or is more information/demo/pictures required before any advice at all is given?

One last thing: structural engineers will give me the best answer, I know, so please don't mention that ;)

Thanks.

Wildie 02-17-2010 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonglebeak (Post 401880)
Trying to enlarge the space in front of (and a bit underneath) of a staircase that runs from 1st floor to 2nd floor. Let me go ahead and supply pics, then explain:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4...aringstuds.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4544/topplater.jpg

In the first picture, the green lines are the ceiling joists. The red lines are the floor joists. And the yellow circle is a cut stud.

The 2nd pic shows where the stairwell meets a post of some sort (the post is not supporting the floor above), and it also shows where the top plate, the sill for the 2nd floor joists, starts.

Thanks.

Looking at the old tongue and groove ceiling and finished material covering the stair stringer, it looks to me as if your wall was built after the building was complete!
I've seen this done, when a single family home was converted into a duplex!
If in fact, the wall was a retrofit, its very likely that you can rip it all out of there!

Tonglebeak 02-18-2010 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 401892)
Looking at the old tongue and groove ceiling and finished material covering the stair stringer, it looks to me as if your wall was built after the building was complete!
I've seen this done, when a single family home was converted into a duplex!
If in fact, the wall was a retrofit, its very likely that you can rip it all out of there!

The problem is those ceiling joists are all resting on the top plate.

Wildie 02-18-2010 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonglebeak (Post 401912)
The problem is those ceiling joists are all resting on the top plate.

Its hard to tell from your photo's where they are resting!

May be a couple of shots showing where they rest, would be better!

Dyoung 02-18-2010 07:51 PM

What are the dimenions of the beam? Im asking because I dont know that its necessarily a huge load bearing stud.....well, not that much anyway. A single stud alone isnt much help, thus you often see them grouped up or set at 90 degree angles in much the same way an I or H steel beam might look.

One method is to group up more beams, or place them at angles. Think like a Catherdal maker, with flying buttresses and the works. Think about how the weight is transferred down.

One of my problems is that Im replacing the old diagonal placed floor in my bathroom. It frustrates me that non load bearing walls are set atop these 3/4 inch planks, so if you need to replace them its a real pain. Even though the non load bearing walls arent bearing any weight from above, they still weight quite a bit. So the solution to support the wall was to place supporting metal plates/rods in between the joists (in lieu of the subfloor), since we had to remove the diagonal subfloor. I also recommend that you remain critical of all ideas and keep asking questions about weight and load bearing....youll spot weak areas that way. Never assume.

Gary in WA 02-18-2010 08:27 PM

Could you post a pic of the floor joists above the yellow circled stud? I'm thinking just hanger those two joists--- up to four feet before you need a doubler.

Be safe, Gary

Tonglebeak 02-19-2010 08:27 AM

Here's a better angle with a bit more drywall down:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7503/anotherangle.jpg

The beam carrying the joists is a nominal 2x4. Here's a pic of the rim joist: it's not all one piece :(

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5082/rimjoist.jpg

Wildie 02-19-2010 08:56 AM

This gives a much better view of your problem! Thanks!

It appears to me that the stair well has been cut in, in the not too distant past!
Using a 2X4 to support the floor joists seems hardly adequate. Makes me wonder what is supporting the wall that you wish to modify, underneath?
I think that there should be a lintel/beam under those floor joists. This in turn, to be supported by posts with adequate support below the floor level.
I'll be interested hear the comments of others! I don't think that a structural engineer was consulted, when the stair well was cut in!

Tonglebeak 02-19-2010 06:08 PM

From the limited visibility I've had, there are 4 true 2x6 floor joists under the wall: one is currently not supported in midspan (it also happens to the directly under the 2nd floor joist). Right now it looks like a nominal 2x4 plate spread over top of the floor joists, and that's it.

wnabcptrNH 02-19-2010 08:27 PM

Wow those guys didnt know what they were doing. Those studs should be under the floor joints so that the weight is not resting midspan on a flat 2x.

Gary in WA 02-19-2010 09:20 PM

Yikes!

Sec. 2326.11.2. Framing Details (cont.). Bearing and exterior wall studs shall be capped with double top plates installed to provide overlapping at corners and at intersections with other partitions. End joints in double top plates must be offset at least 48 inches (2438 mm). EXCEPTION: A single top plate may be used, provided the plate is adequately tied at joints, corners and intersecting walls by at least the equivalent of 3-inch by 6-inch (76 mm by 152 mm) by 0.036-inch-thick (0.90 mm)(20 gage) galvanized steel that is nailed to each wall or segment of wall by six 8d nails or equivalent, provided the rafters, joists or trusses are centered over the studs with tolerance of no more than 1 inch (25 mm).


When bearing studs are spaced at 24-inch (610 mm) intervals and top plates are less than two 2-inch by 6-inch (51 mm by 152 mm) or two 3-inch by 4-inch (76 mm by 102 mm) members and when the floor joists, floor trusses or roof trusses which they support are spaced at more than 16-inch (406 mm) intervals, such joists or trusses shall bear within 5 inches (127 mm) of the studs beneath or a third plate shall be installed.



Be safe, Gary

Scuba_Dave 02-19-2010 09:30 PM

Yeah...based on the paint & the wood...I'm guessing this was built quite a while ago

Wildie 02-19-2010 09:32 PM

Its fortunate that you have opened up that wall and exposed these construction faults.
At least you won't be up-stairs and have the floor collapse under you! You now have the opportunity to make corrections.
You will need to place a lintel (beam) under those over-head floor joists! A lintel constructed from 2-2X8's laminated together would probably be adequate! Depends on the span.
You should show us some pics of what is supporting this wall underneath, also!
Don't remove anything until you place a temporary support in position to carry the weight, when the present wall is removed.

One major concern I have is how well the floor joists are supported over the area where the hand-rail is situated. I would advise you to examine this also!
After what we have seen, its frightening to think what else is hidden!

Tonglebeak 02-20-2010 08:44 AM

There's only 2 joists over that span, and they're not resting on anything. Looks like the old rim joist that was there before, is still holding them up.

The other joists have a split rim joist behind them.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5161/firstjoist.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/792...joistright.jpg


http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9...djoistleft.jpg

Scuba_Dave 02-20-2010 09:15 AM

I'd put a header across to support the joists

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...therangle2.jpg


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