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Old 12-13-2012, 07:24 PM   #16
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Does anyone have anything more current than this 10 year old study of bleach on Doug-fir?

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xm...pdf?sequence=1

Thanks, Gary
Here's the short version.

http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0...083-1/abstract

The full study is available from the University of Arizona.

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Old 12-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dean CRCNA View Post
Sure … bleach kills mold when it can reach the root, steam and flower, like on hard surfaces. Anti-freeze will also do this along with 100s of other products. The problem comes with it working on porous surfaces. Anyone who has ever tried to get rid of mold in their shower by using bleach and is frustrated at the inevitable return of mold within a very short time, knows that bleach does not kill mold on porous surfaces.

Many falsely assume that it works, because they remove the moisture problem … pour bleach on … and the mold problem ends. However, if you continue the moisture source … pour bleach on … the mold will return. This is because the bleach did not reach the roots and thus … did not really kill the mold after all. It is the removal of water that does the trick. Not using bleach.

EPA, CDC & OSHA use to recommend bleach, but they even have wised up and have removed bleach as a problem solver.

Just my 2 cents
The true fact is that the bleach works just fine. What you have to realize is that in a shower you have a mold incubator. You have temperatures in the perfect range. You have perfect moisture levels, and you have the fatty acids in soap scum which is perfect gourmet mold food. You can kill the mold and it will return, because mold spores are everywhere and they've got the perfect terrain to regrow. You've grown new colonies from scratch, not regrown the originals. If one reads the fine print, none of the commercially available fungicides garantees performance on porous surfaces. It's a fact of life (at least fungal life) that mold send mycelia (roots if you will) deep into porous materials where few things can penetrate without having a severely adverse effect on the base material. I have yet to figure out why people continue to want to hold up the EPA and OSHA as experts on mold remediation. Niether agency has ever done any comprehensive studies on killing mold. The EPA's charge is to protect the environment, not tell you how to kill things that live in it. And OSHA's charge is to protect workers. The extent of their involvement with sodium hypochlorite is to make sure mold remediators aren't breathing any toxic fumes. They couldn't care less whether it kills mold. As far as the CDC, they have done studies and even recommended bleach as a sanitizer in healthcare environments, not only to kill mold, but most every other microbe imaginable, including staph and HIV. Again with the same precautions, 10% is enough.
So..... if you are not comfortable with bleach then use one of the hundreds of other things that will kill mold. Just be careful, because things like sulphuric acid or gasoline can cause you a lot more problems than the mold ever would have.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:33 PM   #18
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


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Originally Posted by Maintenance 6 View Post
The true fact is that the bleach works just fine. What you have to realize is that in a shower you have a mold incubator. You have temperatures in the perfect range. You have perfect moisture levels, and you have the fatty acids in soap scum which is perfect gourmet mold food. You can kill the mold and it will return, because mold spores are everywhere and they've got the perfect terrain to regrow. You've grown new colonies from scratch, not regrown the originals. If one reads the fine print, none of the commercially available fungicides garantees performance on porous surfaces. It's a fact of life (at least fungal life) that mold send mycelia (roots if you will) deep into porous materials where few things can penetrate without having a severely adverse effect on the base material. I have yet to figure out why people continue to want to hold up the EPA and OSHA as experts on mold remediation. Niether agency has ever done any comprehensive studies on killing mold. The EPA's charge is to protect the environment, not tell you how to kill things that live in it. And OSHA's charge is to protect workers. The extent of their involvement with sodium hypochlorite is to make sure mold remediators aren't breathing any toxic fumes. They couldn't care less whether it kills mold. As far as the CDC, they have done studies and even recommended bleach as a sanitizer in healthcare environments, not only to kill mold, but most every other microbe imaginable, including staph and HIV. Again with the same precautions, 10% is enough.
So..... if you are not comfortable with bleach then use one of the hundreds of other things that will kill mold. Just be careful, because things like sulphuric acid or gasoline can cause you a lot more problems than the mold ever would have.
OSHA

OSHA has some very good info on mold. In fact, we had to study it when I went to mold school. They specifically state that bleach is not recommended. Additionally, they say; “As a general rule, simply killing the mold, for example, with biocide is not enough. The mold must be removed, since the chemicals and proteins, which can cause a reaction in humans, are present even in dead mold”.

CDC

Mold growth can be removed from hard surfaces with commercial products, soap and water, or a bleach solution of no more than 1 cup of bleach in 1 gallon of water. Not on porous surfaces.

EPA

EPA also has a lot of information on mold, including a booklet that many "trained" remediation companies follow. We also studied their info when I went to mold school, so I could pass several test on the subject. They say; "Biocides are substances that can destroy living organisms. The use of a chemical or biocide that kills organisms such as mold (chlorine bleach, for example) is not recommended as a routine practice during mold cleanup".

Not really trying to argue the point. Just was trying to help other contractors, who are interested. I will butt out.

Last edited by Dean CRCNA; 12-13-2012 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:31 AM   #19
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


it would be cool if you post before and after pics!
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:28 PM   #20
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Perhaps reading this information...about Tilex Mildew Root Penetrator and Remover...which uses beach as an active ingredient will help. Just remember, that the bleach used in household products is very diluted...and safe if used as indicated.

It appears that application is the key to killing mold...5 to 10 minutes depending on the surface, be it porous or nonporous.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ed911 View Post
Perhaps reading this information...about Tilex Mildew Root Penetrator and Remover...which uses beach as an active ingredient will help. Just remember, that the bleach used in household products is very diluted...and safe if used as indicated.

It appears that application is the key to killing mold...5 to 10 minutes depending on the surface, be it porous or nonporous.
The only porous surface they say is grout. All other surfaces are hard surfaces. Additionally, they say not to use on wood, which is the original topic. Advertisements are many times different than reality.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:58 PM   #22
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Wood...yep. The only reason that I thought they wouldn't want to use it on wood, is that it might damage it, but in this case...it would be okay...as an off label use since the wood was going to the dump anyway.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:56 PM   #23
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Any more current from a source other than Clorox company? They are a little bias...

What I have found;

"6. Hypochlorites (Chlorox Bleach):
Bactericidal, Virucidal, Fungicidal, Sporicidal (prolonged contact time required), and Tuberculocidal. Use a diluted concentartion of 1:10 .
Advantages - inexpensive
Disadvantages - bleaching agent, toxic, corrosive, inactivated by organic matter; removes color from many interior fabrics; dissolves protein fibers (i.e. wool, silk); has not shown to be effective against stachybotrys spores." Underline is mine, from; http://www.toxic-black-mold-info.com/disinfectant.htm


"
Why Chlorine Bleach is NOT Recommended for Mold Remediation.
Clorine bleach is corrosive and that fact is stated on the product label (not to mention the exposure hazards of dioxins). Yet the properties of chlorine bleach prevent it from “soaking into” wood-based building materials to get at the deeply embedded mycelia (roots) of mold. The object to killing mold is to kill its “roots”. " Underline is mine, from: http://www.spore-tech.com/viewCatego...?idCategory=78


"
One reason is that bleach cannot completely kill mold growing in porous materials. The chlorine in bleach cannot penetrate into porous surfaces such as drywall or wood. The chlorine is left on the surface of porous materials and only the water component of the bleach is absorbed into the material, providing more moisture for the mold to feed on.

Some of the mold on the surface might be killed but the roots of the mold are left intact meaning the mold soon returns, leaving you in a cycle of repeated bleaching. Perhaps this is why some people believe that spraying bleach on mold doesn't affect it but instead just bleaches its color so you can no longer see it." Underline is mine, from: http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html

"
A recent scientific study paid for by Clorox states that "Chlorine Bleach is NOT registered with the EPA as a disinfectant to kill mold." Unless the mold spores are on top of a hard non-porous surface such as a counter top, bleach is ineffective at killing the mold completely. Instead it will simply whiten it and make it appear to be gone while the fungal "roots" are still alive. Bleach also dissipates quickly, leaving inert (harmless to mold) by-products behind. In fact, over 50 percent of the chlorine ions have leaked through the plastic bleach bottle in just 24 hours after its manufacture. The rest slowly leach out as it sits in warehouses, stores shelves and supply closets. Further, bleach is highly carcinogenic and mutagenic.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:54 AM   #24
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


No more using bleach on wood. Good article...thanks for posting this information. I learn something everyday...and will pass this along.

Last edited by Ed911; 12-16-2012 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:23 AM   #25
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


In the near future mold will be broken down through genetic manipulation. Scientists cracked the genetic code of a bacteria known as Mrsa. This is a very significant break through. Let us not forget mold is your friend, with out bottom feeders breaking down organic matter we would all die.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:38 AM   #26
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


[quote=GBR in WA;1073819]Any more current from a source other than Clorox company? They are a little bias...
Clorox didn't do the study. U. of Arizona did the study.
Funny that you would say that.......

Last edited by Maintenance 6; 12-16-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #27
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Whoops, my fault. The study was paid for by them. On porous and non-porous ceramic material. Not wood, big difference there.
Very important to dry the wood to prevent further mold growth;

The isolation frequencies of the various
fungi do not imply that the boards
were covered with spores or hyphal fragments;
however, the results show that viable
fungal propagules remain on the
wood surface following bleach treatment.
Some airborne spores also may
have landed on the boards as they were
drying; however, regardless of the origin
of the fungi, failure to alter the conditions
on the wood surface, primarily
through drying, will invariably lead to
regrowth of these fungi.

Water and
bleach washes tended to reduce surface
discoloration by 40 to 50 percent (Fig.
1), but obviously they did not kill all the
spores on the wood surface; it is clear
that the fungi remaining on the wood
surface after treatment were capable of
continued growth and discoloration
when the wood was stored under ideal
growth conditions.

Implications
While bleach is often recommended
for remediation of surface mold on
wood, our results illustrate that the treatment
does not eliminate the surface
microflora. As a result, an important
component of remediation must be drying
to moisture levels below 20 percent
(the generally accepted level for inhibiting
growth of fungi onwood) (Zabel and
Morrell 1992). In the absence of drying,
some fungi clearly survive the treatment
and may re-colonize the surface. (http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xm...pdf?sequence=1)


To be fair, none of the products tested treated all the mold types effectively. I feel bleach is too harsh on ones lungs and it doesn’t effectively remove all traces of mold, still researching others. Thanks for the link, I couldn’t get the PDF but it was tested on ceramic anyway (great for tile/grout). But we knew that.


Gary
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:13 PM   #28
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


What you've posted is very much the case. It is also why, when performing a remediation effort, after cleaning and attempting a fungicidal effort, it is very important to seal the surface. This isn't just for aethetics. It is to prevent stray mold fragments and spores from reentraining into the air. No product, regardless of claim by the manufacturer is effective at "killing" mold that is deep seated in porous materials. If possible, affected porous materials should be replaced. In the real world, there are items, such as framing and subflooring that are not easily or readily replaced. They need to be treated as effectively as possible. Bleach does come with it's risks. That is one of the primary reasons that OSHA and the EPA have come out in opposition to it. That is why I ALWAYS recommend that if one is going to use it, they NEVER exceed 10% and always use it in a well ventilated area. People will use it because it is one thing that everyone has under the counter. Of the sites that you posted links to, some have good info, while some are sponsored by "magic mold potion" companies. I have serious reservations about the "Sporetech" site, mainly because he promotes "Mold and Mildew" surveys. A true mold expert would know that mildew is a class of mold that is really only found on the leaves of living plants. (Believed at one time to be caused by the dust from industrial mills in Jolly old England, hence the name MILdew). This one: Ingredients That Kill Mold | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_5799848_ing...#ixzz2FBQSGz8u says not to use bleach, but under the "More to explore" link is a site explaining to use bleach. Go figure.

Another thing to remember is that mold that isn't "killed" will go dormant when moisture levels drop (usually below .6 water content or 60% RH). As long as moisture levels remain low, it may never become a problem, but in the event the surface is re-wetted, the mold will return with a vengeance.

"A recent scientific study paid for by Clorox states that "Chlorine Bleach is NOT registered with the EPA as a disinfectant to kill mold." That is true, but then, think about what the ramifications are for a product to be registered as any kind of "Cide" (pesticide, herbicide, fungicide). The transportation costs alone would likely triple the cost of bleach, not to mention the red tape that the manufacturer, supplier, and end user would be subjected to.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:30 PM   #29
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


well i think she said she cut up the part and is going to put new wood in, so its all good
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:10 PM   #30
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MOLD found on Wood Subfloor under Fridge-HELP!!!


Does vinegar or borax(diluted correctly) work on it differently?

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