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Old 03-26-2011, 01:25 PM   #1
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


We are doing a renovation on our 21 year old ranch style house; replacing the windows and siding. As we were removing the old siding we found frost on the tar paper and moisture on the plywood sheeting of our house. It is all over not just localized to the window areas or vents. The attic is dry, there is no evidence of moisture inside the house; so we have ruled out ice daming. The contractor and insurance adjustor are baffled. We need to find out what is causing this before we wrap, insulate, and re-side the house, sealing in the moisture (or cause of it). Anyone experienced this and know the cause?

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Old 03-26-2011, 01:29 PM   #2
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


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We are doing a renovation on our 21 year old ranch style house; replacing the windows and siding. As we were removing the old siding we found frost on the tar paper and moisture on the plywood sheeting of our house. It is all over not just localized to the window areas or vents. The attic is dry, there is no evidence of moisture inside the house; so we have ruled out ice daming. The contractor and insurance adjustor are baffled. We need to find out what is causing this before we wrap, insulate, and re-side the house, sealing in the moisture (or cause of it). Anyone experienced this and know the cause?
It could be coming from the interior. Are the walls insulated properly ?
Vapor barrier installed, properly?
Ron

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Old 03-26-2011, 01:38 PM   #3
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Welcome to the forum.

There’s a few different things that could be causing this and usually involves installation issues.

There are defiantly people here that can help.

Can you post some pictures?

tp://www.diychatroom.com/f19/how-attach-photo-post-12559/
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Old 03-26-2011, 01:53 PM   #4
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


As far as we know the vapor barrier is still intact. We built the house 21 years ago and figured it was right then!? The good/interesting news was that when the insurance adjustor came with his moisture reader, the interior of the walls (drywall side) read dry. Plywood exterior wall read moist. We drilled two small holes through the plywood and he put the probes of the moisture reader through to the plastic (they were 5" - 6" long) and he only got a higher reading as he exited out past the plywood. I took that as good news. Question is where is it coming from and will it reoccur when we put on the new stuff.
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Old 03-26-2011, 02:05 PM   #5
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Here are some pictures to look at, see what you think.
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting-master-file-060.jpg   Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting-master-file-062.jpg  
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Old 03-26-2011, 03:09 PM   #6
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Most of the water stains extent from the soffit down(except the stain furthest away in the photo). Could be an issue with the insulation in the attic over the top plate where warm and cold air meet. The condensation could be from that.
Or
Ice damming issue? Does the roof have ice and water shield applied?
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:05 PM   #7
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Your next step should be to remove some soffit and take a look.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:51 PM   #8
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Hi where are you located? That ply wood came from a small town called Salmon Arm B.C. Canada. That has nothing to do with anything it is just my home town. I was wondering how far away it gets used. To do with your problem. I assume the water marks were everywhere? More on the windward, exposed side of your house? Vinyl siding is not waterproof. It keeps out 99% of water, but that's it. It surprises me that everyone is baffled. When you re-do it, I would go double paper, Rain screen then siding. The rain screen is/are spacers between the siding and the paper to allow air movement because vinyl siding is not water proof. We used to use vertical strips of 1/2" pressure treated ply but found that after a while the area behind the ply stayed wet and developed mold. You can now buy plastic spacers for this purpose. They have much less contact surface area = less holding water = less mold

this is the old method, notice how the water could "stick" behind strips.
This method is still accepted by new home warranty but I feel the other method is better.

This is someones diy idea and it works quite well. It is foundation waterproofing membrane cut into strips. Notice minimal contact area and room for both horizontal and vertical air flow. This should be run vertically for vinyl.
I live in Canada so I have NO idea what your building codes are like but I know here this system is starting to become code in a lot of areas.
I also know this will be code in Oregon soon if it is not already.
Hope this helps, do some research on it there are better systems I just don't feel like looking any longer
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:50 PM   #9
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Hey thanks for the reply and pictures. We live in Canada as well, in Alberta, sorry the plywood didn't travel that far to get to us. That is the most comforting idea so far. We have heard lots of ideas about moisture coming from the inside of the house out to the siding and getting trapped there. That would mean everything is wrecked. Hopefully, this means that only the thinnest layer of plywood has been affected. The one contractor who came to look at the house suggested that we remove all the soffit so the new wrap could go all the way up to the headers. I have to convince the insurance company to do that because that is not in our budget. I am sure that makes the most sense. The original plan was for our contractor to replace the windows, seal them properly, wrap the house, add a layer of styrofoam and put on new siding. Now with the soffit coming down, we will add new insulation stoppers in the attic, and more blow in insulation in the attic. Then new soffit, i guess. The fun never ends.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:06 AM   #10
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Hi

Your problem or maybe not so much of a problem is related to interstitial condensation. You are never likely to get rid of interstitial condensation, for the good news the condensation is forming where you would expect it to form 'on the cold side of the costruction.

The remedy would be to introduce some ventilation through the outside wall into the cavity, this is why the insulation material needs to be on the warm side (internal side) of the structure.

What you should have is a breather membrane on the external side of the structure and a vapour barrier on the internal side. The vapour barrier helps to keep the moisture laden warm air within the warm side of the structure where it can do no harm. The breather membrane on the external structure allows the cavity to breathe and eventually the moisture will vapourise that is once the external temperature is sufficient to raise the temperature of the air within the cavity above the dew point of the air.

As long as you have no problems other than condensation in the cavity on the cold side of the structure then the design is working as intended, you just need to make sure that you have a vapour barrier on the warm side and a breatherable membrane on the outside of the timber stud work.

A late edit: A further problem you have is that neither tar paper or vinyl are breatheable and vapour will become trapped behind these materials, similar to sweating, which may be adding to your problems.

Regards

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Old 03-27-2011, 07:56 AM   #11
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Moisture only comes about when there is a meeting of two different temperatures, check that vents are clear, also check to see if the boards are still together and not 'bellied' due to water ingress near the roofline.
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Old 03-27-2011, 08:09 AM   #12
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


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Moisture only comes about when there is a meeting of two different temperatures, check that vents are clear, also check to see if the boards are still together and not 'bellied' due to water ingress near the roofline.

not exactly accurate,dew point needs to be reached before condensation will form,and there are a few variables that need to be reached before that happens,hereslooking probably got it,a layer of foam would probably change the dew point location and be the solution to this problem
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Old 03-27-2011, 12:43 PM   #13
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Here is a site I found it is interesting but long.
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publication...tion-barriers/
It is testing done on wrap and felt done by the u of mass.
for what it's worth I will, and will always, go with paper and rainscreen.
I fail to see how vinyl siding could possibly be impermeable. It clips together, the over lap is not sealed and it has drain holes on 2' centers.
The trick is to deal with the water that is guaranteed to get behind it. That's where to air space comes into play. Water is not the problem. Holding the water is.
There are a lot of really old houses around. They are very drafty and hard to heat/cool. But they are still standing. Why, because they are drafty. As long as wood is allowed to dry after it gets wet there is rarely an issue

Last edited by craig4; 03-27-2011 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:24 PM   #14
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


vinyl siding is to be installed on a flat surface,it should not be installed directly to studs or furring,the ''water'' getting behind it is most likely from condensation because thats where the dew point is,a rainscreed is not going to prevent that.Vinyl siding is one of the leakyest claddings out there which is a good thing
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:56 PM   #15
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Moisture discovered between vinyl siding, tar paper, and plywood sheeting


Hey, I found the clips I was looking for last night, they are called "raindog"
They are a rainscreen system designed for vinyl siding exclusively. They are code compliant in places that require rainscreen and are developed by the vinyl siding manufacturers. This is the best system, IMO, and is very easy to install. They are clipped onto the siding on 16" centers as you nail them onto the wall. They are 6-8" long so spacing between is minimal. A rainscreen system is mandatory in a lot of coastal states and provinces. IMO, condensation is always going to happen, I think this is the best way to deal with it.

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