Forums | Home Repair | Home Improvement | Painting | Interior Decorating | Remodeling | Landscaping


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-22-2012, 12:53 AM   #1
Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 359
Share |
Default

Me ranting about nails...


I'm not a carpenter/framer by trade. I'm a home owner tackling my own remodeling projects. One of the things that has really driven me crazy over the past few months, is the amount of mixed information floating around regarding nails. More specifically, the proper nails to use to meet minimum code requirements. Let me provide an example...

When fastening 7/16" OSB wood structural panels to wall framing, the IRC indicates to use "6d common nail (subfloor, wall)" and a nailing pattern of every 6" along the edges and every 12" at intermediate supports - or in the "field". The nail specification appears the same in the 2000 and 2003 IRC and was changed to read "6d common (2" 0.113") nail (subfloor, wall)" in the 2006, 2009 and 2012 IRC. Apparently they added the dimensions to further clarify that a "common" sized nail was to be used in this application.

I've read numerous posts on this forum and others around the web regarding the proper nails for wall sheathing. In my estimation, a good 90% of replies to the question of "What nail do I need?" state to use 8d nails. This makes sense if the sheathing material is thicker, say 19/32" to 1" when the IRC calls for "8d common nail (2" 0.131")" or 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" sheathing when the IRC calls for "10d common (3" 0.148") nail or 8d (2" 0.131") deformed nail". Many replies also state to use galvanized ring shank nails for their superior holding performance. So my question is this...

As common as 7/16" OSB is for wall sheathing, is everyone simply over-building by using 8d galvanized ring shank nails? Or is there some other hidden reason buried deep within the IRC or local codes? Because as far as I can tell, 6d nails get the job done for meeting minimum code and 8d goes the extra mile. Some of the replies that I've seen almost make it sound as though 8d are the code requirement, which is a bit misleading.

Along the same lines, what gives with the inconsistency in gun nail sizes? The ICC and nail manufacturers seem to be teaming up to play a cruel joke on us. Here comes an example:

The fastener schedule in the 2000 and 2003 IRC states to use the following nails for connecting a stud to a sole plate, toe nail: "3–8d or 2–16d"

We must assume that the nails in question are "common" nails. Now if that's the case, the 8d nails would measure 2.5" x .131" and the 16d nails would measure 3.5" x .162". My framing nailer shoots 2" to 3-1/2" nails with diameters between .113" and .148". 8d common sized nails are available and I can shoot them with my gun. While available, my gun cannot shoot 16d common sized nails because of the .162" diameter. I've determined that the most frequently used nail for gun framing measures 3-1/4" x .131". I can fire these with my gun, but the nails are certainly not 16d. I've seen them referred to as "16d shorts", but at the end of the day, the box is still labeled "12d". (And funny enough it's only a 12d by length as the .131" diameter does not meet the requirements for a common OR box nail!) So for this particular connection, stud to sole plate w/ toe nail, you're left guessing as to how many nails to drive. Since the 3-1/4" x .131" nail has the same diameter as an 8d common nail, do you just consider it a longer 8d and drive 3 nails? Or... do you consider the nails to be slightly shorter, thinner 16d nails, drive one or two in addition to the minimum 2 and call it a day?

To further complicate matters, in the 2006 IRC, the fastening requirement for stud to sole plate, toe nail was modified to the following: "3-8d (2" 0.113") or 2-16d (3" 0.135")" Great... so now the sizes reflect "box" nail measurements. I've seen 2-1/2" x .113" nails readily available in home stores, but I've yet to come across a single box of 3-1/2" x .135" nails anywhere. The reigning champion of gun nails still seems to be the 3-1/4" x .131 nail which does not meet either requirement outlined above. These nails are larger than the 8d 2-1/2" x .113" nails, so I suppose you could fire 3 of them and call the project "over-built", but why does this have to be so difficult? If stepping up to longer and/or thicker nails than outlined in the IRC, when is the line crossed between over-building something and weakening the structural components? After all, too many nails can be just as bad as not enough...

Interestingly enough, there is another publication titled "ESR-1539" that provides still different information on fastening requirements. The publication appears to be from the ICC and outlines specific requirements for certain types of fasteners. For instance, when fastening stud to sole plate, toe nail, the publication states to use 4 8d common nails -or- 3 16d common nails -or- 4 of our good friend the 3-1/4" x .131" gun nail. The publication is available here: http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...S/ESR-1539.pdf

So, what the heck? How can there be so many different ways to make these connections and all meet minimum code? Do you follow the IRC exactly? What is the rule of thumb for over-building? Drive an extra nail? Drive a larger nail? When is it too much? This is insanity! I'm tempted to just buy loose nails of the exact sizes outlined in the IRC, hand bang them all and say to hell with the framing gun.

This post is more of a rant as this subject has been driving me crazy. Anyone out there with enough patience to read it all is more than welcome to contribute their two cents. It just seems to me that in 2012 we would have found a way to make the building trade a little easier and a lot less confusing. Especially when it comes to something as "simple" as a nail...

NOTE: All comments are based on the fact that my local building office has adopted the 2003 IRC as our local code. They made no changes to the fastening schedule. They are in the process of updating to the 2009 IRC.

Last edited by Pittsville; 09-22-2012 at 01:35 AM.
Pittsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2012, 07:29 AM   #2
the Musigician
 
DangerMouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 10,404
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Simply knowing what nails to use for what CAN be frustrating! We returned the "Grip-right" nails the wife bought after every other nail seemed to bend in the middle! I found MAZE nails, made in the USA and never looked back.

DM
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Click
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
to see some of my original magic tricks and trick boxes!
DangerMouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2012, 07:31 AM   #3
journeyman carpenter
 
woodworkbykirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: nova scotia canada
Posts: 2,589
Default

Me ranting about nails...


your way overthinking this. code is the minimum.. any decent builder just used common sense. when it comes to structure most often more is better

standard practice is to use 2 1/4' s for sheathing and strapping both for hand nailing and gun nailing.. for framing 3 1 /2" common spikes for hand and 3 1/4" through the gun
woodworkbykirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2012, 08:23 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Posts: 6,779
Default

Me ranting about nails...


When you attach sheathing to studs or joists you have to nail quite close to the edge of the sheet and the stick. Too-fat a nail wil split the wood.
__________________
The average homeowner who lost his house in the Oklahoma tornadoes should move for good and not rebuild. Too much complexity watchdogging the contractor. Too much a chance to be defrauded.

Last edited by AllanJ; 09-22-2012 at 08:25 AM.
AllanJ is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AllanJ For This Useful Post:
Housecrzy (10-20-2012)
Old 09-22-2012, 09:56 AM   #5
Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 359
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Quote:
Originally Posted by woodworkbykirk
standard practice is to use 2 1/4' s for sheathing and strapping both for hand nailing and gun nailing.. for framing 3 1 /2" common spikes for hand and 3 1/4" through the gun
So... 2 1/4" being 7d. (Not commonly found in stores in my neck of the woods) Would you personally then go with 6d or 8d for sheathing and strapping? Hand bang or gun? Around here if you choose the gun route, you're either forced to shoot 2" x .113" (true 6d common) or 2 3/8" x .113" (8d cooler).

The ESR-1539 seems more useful to me then the IRC when it comes to determining which nail to use and how many.
Pittsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 10:54 AM   #6
AHH, SPANS!!!
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Durham NC
Posts: 1,555
Default

Me ranting about nails...


I've always used 2 1/2" inch ring shank for the nail gun and this works great for wall sheathing and roof sheathing, 2" ring shanks work too but that extra 3/8" of bite allows for a better hold IMO. When on the job you do not want to many available nails as it gets really confusing and I tend to shoot fro one 4 all type of fasteners. for wall sheathing and roof sheathing you do not need to use galvanized ring shank but if you have need for them elsewhere that goes back to the one for all and the extra money for the galvanized ring shank makes up for having 2 different boxes of half used nails left over...
hand drive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 07:01 PM   #7
journeyman carpenter
 
woodworkbykirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: nova scotia canada
Posts: 2,589
Default

Me ranting about nails...


im in canada actually, we dont use the penny system for nail size its actual size of the nail

the only time we use 2" nails is when installing 1" rigid foam to the exterior via 2" siding nails, and when gun nailing wood siding where we use ring shank stainless steel coil nails
woodworkbykirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 04:00 AM   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 10
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Wow, I seem to recall the builder of my garage using STAPLES to fasten 7/16" OSB to the studs!
aaronk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 07:13 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: WV
Posts: 2,819
Default

Me ranting about nails...


As noted, you are seriously overthinking this whole thing. I have done a lot of work with Habitat for Humanity in various places in the U.S. On every build, all the framing and sheathing/subflooring was done with one of two nail sizes, 8d or 16d sinkers. My wife and I built our house by ourselves, and did the same thing. Habitat does not, in general, allow volunteers to use pneumatic nailers, and we didn't use them either.
md2lgyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 07:33 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 41
Default

Me ranting about nails...


My rant about nails is contractors not using stainless steel siding nails to attach cedar clapboards. I've been doing exterior painting and it's annoying having to counter-sink rusty nails, fill holes with caulk, etc to deal with rust nails. In some spots, the nails are completely rusted through.

I recently had a contractor do a small bump-out on my house and caught him using non-stainless steel siding nails. Arrgh.
diycoder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 08:14 PM   #11
journeyman carpenter
 
woodworkbykirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: nova scotia canada
Posts: 2,589
Default

Me ranting about nails...


staples are allowed in some regions for fastening wall sheathijng.. they have plenty of holding power however they dont have shear strength. i dont think their allowed to use them in seismic zones

as for stainless steel nails, its typically a cost issue or availability. builders that dont do high end work wont be bothered to pay almost double the cost for stainless steel nails or their supplier just doesnt stock them. we use when installing wood and fibre cement siding along with cedar shingles. for paint grade wood siding we use color match painted ss ring nails .. we pay $65 for a 5 lb box. as opposed to $28 for galvy`s
woodworkbykirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 12:30 PM   #12
Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 359
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Personally, I don't feel as though I'm over-thinking the subject. There is a lot of misleading/contradictory information available and I'm trying to sift through it all to find the truth. When the safety of my family and others is at stake, I'll research the topic exhaustively until I'm 100% confident that the structure is as strong as it can be.

I've been doing a great deal of research on the IRC and ESR-1539. It's my understanding that the IRC provides the minimum code. ESR-1539 seems to use the minimum code as a baseline to provide specs for using a broader range of fasteners. Because of this, ESR-1539 still seems more useful, especially when the nails available in your market are limited to a select few sizes. You can reference the document to determine the number of nails to use for the connection method.

The one connection that I've been unable to find information for in either the IRC or ESR-1539, is horizontal blocking between studs. (Said blocking is installed for the purpose of hanging sheathing on the exterior wall) I may have overlooked it, but I don't recall seeing a nailing schedule for this blocking. In my particular case, since the studs are already installed, I can face nail one side of the blocking, but I'd have to toe nail the other side.

Last edited by Pittsville; 09-25-2012 at 12:33 PM.
Pittsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 02:27 PM   #13
Member
 
GBrackins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Fairhaven, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,733
Default

Me ranting about nails...


for blocking between studs being secured with toe-nails you have to look at movement. you have side to side, front to rear and up and down. studs will prevent the side to side.

so the blocking can move front to rear or up and down. in those positions toe-nails will hold (min. 2 nails, 1 each side). attach one side with end nails the other with toe-nails. if the blocking could move side to side then toe-nails would not have the lateral resistance since the movement would be in the general direction the nail is driven. nails are strong in shear, not in withdrawal.

blocking may be installed with narrow side out, or on the flat. I have never found that stated in the code. I found that out from the American Wood Council, publishers of the Wood Frame Construction Manual which is a referenced code design manual.
__________________
Gary

"You get what you pay for, and sometimes free costs more!"
GBrackins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 02:51 PM   #14
Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 359
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBrackins
for blocking between studs being secured with toe-nails you have to look at movement. you have side to side, front to rear and up and down. studs will prevent the side to side.

so the blocking can move front to rear or up and down. in those positions toe-nails will hold (min. 2 nails, 1 each side). attach one side with end nails the other with toe-nails. if the blocking could move side to side then toe-nails would not have the lateral resistance since the movement would be in the general direction the nail is driven. nails are strong in shear, not in withdrawal.

blocking may be installed with narrow side out, or on the flat. I have never found that stated in the code. I found that out from the American Wood Council, publishers of the Wood Frame Construction Manual which is a referenced code design manual.
Good info, thanks! I have my blocking installed with the narrow side out. Started by face nailing and toe nailing with 3 8d common nails per side. Switched to face nailing with 3 10d commons and stayed with 3 8d nails for toe nailing the other side.
Pittsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 12:26 PM   #15
Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 359
Default

Me ranting about nails...


Quote:
Originally Posted by md2lgyk View Post
As noted, you are seriously overthinking this whole thing. I have done a lot of work with Habitat for Humanity in various places in the U.S. On every build, all the framing and sheathing/subflooring was done with one of two nail sizes, 8d or 16d sinkers. My wife and I built our house by ourselves, and did the same thing. Habitat does not, in general, allow volunteers to use pneumatic nailers, and we didn't use them either.
I've been looking at sinkers for some time. I like the idea that they're thinner than commons, so less likely to split the lumber. I also like the fact that I can get them cement coated like their gun nail cousins. Ideally, I think I'd like to do all of my framing with three nail sizes - 8d sinker, 16d sinker and 10d common (for joining studs/splices together). The questions that I have about sinkers that I can't seem to find the answers to:

1. How common are HDG sinkers? I've not really seen them available in my area. These are obviously a must when nailing into PT lumber...

2. Similar to #1, how common are loose (hand bang) ring shank sinkers? I can find these in gun nails all day and night, but have yet to see them loose in a box.

3. I see 8d sinkers (2-3/8" x .113") in the ESR-1539, but no mention of 16d sinkers (3-1/4" x .148"). What gives? Since they're the same diameter as a 10d common, do you just treat them as a "long 10d" and use the appropriate number?

4. Any thoughts on diminished holding power or easier withdrawal since the heads are countersunk instead of being "T" shaped like a common?
Pittsville is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where? Toronto Carpentry 25 07-26-2012 07:08 PM
33 vs 35 Nails Dilemma banzaitoyota Tools 1 12-28-2010 06:44 AM
nail guns & nails koodawg Tools 4 12-06-2010 10:05 PM
What nails to use? 2x4 framing, osb sheathing jw15842 Carpentry 6 09-08-2008 10:31 PM
Which nails are right for the job? MIKEGOUGH1 Building & Construction 2 12-16-2006 10:54 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.