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Old 08-28-2009, 06:06 AM   #1
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Hello

I am thinking of applying cultured stone veneer to the exterior. The instructions I have seen soo far from Owens Corning and Boulder Creek Stone state to first apply Flashing / J-Weep 4 " above grade followed by a water resistant barrier (something like Tvyek?) then metal lathe then mortar scratch coat then the stone veneer buttered with mortar.

Instructions from Boulder Creep Stone for stone veneer installation.
http://www.bouldercreekstone.com/doc...stallation.pdf

Instruction from Owens Corning for stone veneer installation.
http://www.culturedstone.com/technic...ingdetail1.asp

--------------------------------------------

Now these cultured stone veneers unlike full brick veneers don't require a an air gap between brick wall and the sheathing/housewrap

The Owens Corning instructions shows the WRB lapped over the flashing.

My question is where does the moisture collect to run down the flashing since there is no air cavity/gap anywhere ?

-------------------------------------------

I am planning on replacing my exterior sheathing with the below sheathing product which does NOT require a housewrap. Found out about this on Contractor Talk forum and it has good reviews by the pros.

http://huberwood.com/

The thread on the above sheathing
http://www.contractortalk.com/f4/any...eathing-38512/

Since the above sheathing requires no housewrap, I need to know if I even need a J-Weep / Flashing and the moisture discharge issue.

Thanks
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:05 AM   #2
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Spud, there are many ways to address the underlayment for cultured stone, but only a few that are ideals IMO. Kudos to you for looking into this BEFORE starting the project.

IMO, the absolute best procedure is to use a system like this:http://www.mtidry.com/hyperspecs/hyp...id=01ST02WD003

As another option, you can use:
- 2 -layers of WRB, alternating joints. (If tyvek exists over sheathing already, just put 1 additional layer of tarpaper over.)
- A product like Tyvek Drainwrap, which allows for small drainage channels behind the wall.
- Install a simple plastic weep screed at the base of the wall, either designed for EIFS or Cultured stone.
- Study all illustrations at MTI for window & penetration flashings to get an idea of how to keep the water out.

BTW, I would NOT recommend laying any masonry directly against normal Tyvek. There's evidence out now that direct contact to mortar can disinegrate Tyvek. As a matter of fact, as of April 1 this year, our code was updated to require 15# tarpaper min. behind all residential masonry.

Kind of funny how there was a false sense of security connected to Tyvek, like it was some "cure all" in modern construction, & now we seem to be going back to the old reliable tar paper.

Kind of scary to think there are hundreds of thousands of homes with Tyvek & flashings (or lack of) that will severly limit the lifespan of the masonry veneer over it. It's actually kind of sad, as most full masonry veneer should see a lifespan of 100-300+ years, but will be lucky to see 10-20 years due to improper prep bhind it.

Spud, this may seem like overkill, but your really investing a little more to insure the veneer application, & ultimately the house in which it's installed.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:12 AM   #3
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Hello

Much thanks for reponding. I made a thread (on vaulted ceiling insulation) here like a week ago and got no response so seeing you reply with a detailed post is great.

I am also in Wisconsin, Waukesha to be exact.

The house is 50-60s era ranch single story. I don't even know if any housewrap was used. The front of the house has a mix of partial full real brick siding and complete (from ground to roof) brick siding . All there is behind the brick in the partial section is a 1" air cavity and homasote sheathing .

----------------------------------------------------

Question
Is WRB considered housewrap?

About the Sure Cavity , is that considered a housewrap?
Is it a water resistant barrier?

On the "How to install Sure Cavity"
it says "Construction paper, Sure Cavity™ and metal lath to extend down over top of foundation wall a minimum of 2"." What is this construction paper they are talking about?

The pictorial doesn't mention all the components that go after the OSB/Plywood sheathing so am I right in the below understanding?

OSB/Plywood sheathing--->Sure Cavity--->Metal lathe---->Scratch coat mortar---->Stone siding with mortar setting.

--------------------------------------------------

If I used that Huberboard product Zip Wall system, can and do I need to still use Sure Cavity or an alternative like Tvyek Drainwrap?
If I use Sure Cavity or Drainwrap over the Zip Wall system will it create a moisture problem where moisture is trapped between 2 moisture barriers (which I hear is a big NO NO) since the Zip Wall system is "ZIP System® wall sheathing has a built-in, water-resistive barrier that lets you say goodbye to housewrap forever"

http://huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagen...emwalloverview

----------------------------

Going off on a tangent but related. I tried to enroll for Masonry class at Milwaukee Area Technical College but couldn't because the classes are only available to those in the Masonry program which had it's registration deadline in Spring for this Fall classes. So I am within the next couple of hours gona see if Waukesha County Technical College will allow me to take Masonry classes though I doubt it as they also require being in a program.

Thanks for the reply.
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:20 PM   #4
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spud View Post
Hello

Much thanks for reponding. I made a thread (on vaulted ceiling insulation) here like a week ago and got no response so seeing you reply with a detailed post is great.

I am also in Wisconsin, Waukesha to be exact.

I had a very strong feeling, that's the only reason I replied!
I'm actually North of Milwuakee about 30 minutes, but obviously I have been to Waukesha.
BTW, welcome to the site.

The house is 50-60s era ranch single story. I don't even know if any housewrap was used. The front of the house has a mix of partial full real brick siding and complete (from ground to roof) brick siding . All there is behind the brick in the partial section is a 1" air cavity and homasote sheathing .

----------------------------------------------------

Question
Is WRB considered housewrap?

Actually, housewrap is one form of WRB, as well as tarpaper, Ice & Water shield, etc...

About the Sure Cavity , is that considered a housewrap?
Is it a water resistant barrier?

No, anything but a WRB. It's design is to allow water thru the front to the back, & it merely serves as an un-obstructed channel to get any water to the base of the wall, & out from behind the wall as fast as possible.

On the "How to install Sure Cavity"
it says "Construction paper, Sure Cavity™ and metal lath to extend down over top of foundation wall a minimum of 2"." What is this construction paper they are talking about?

The pictorial doesn't mention all the components that go after the OSB/Plywood sheathing so am I right in the below understanding?

OSB/Plywood sheathing--->Sure Cavity--->Metal lathe---->Scratch coat mortar---->Stone siding with mortar setting.

The diagrams I have on paper are far clearer than this. They recommend 2 layers of 15# felt "or better" over the sheating & under the sure cavity. Same recommendation under the Tyvek Drainwrap, but obviously, they recommend 2 layers of regular Tyvek OR 15 # tarpaper.

A side note on the Sure Cavity. I think I may have clicked the wrong link for you earlier. The Shure Cavity is the bigger, 10 mm stuff, where as you should have no problem using the 3/16" counterpart for a single story residential job.

--------------------------------------------------

If I used that Huberboard product Zip Wall system, can and do I need to still use Sure Cavity or an alternative like Tvyek Drainwrap?
If I use Sure Cavity or Drainwrap over the Zip Wall system will it create a moisture problem where moisture is trapped between 2 moisture barriers (which I hear is a big NO NO) since the Zip Wall system is "ZIP System® wall sheathing has a built-in, water-resistive barrier that lets you say goodbye to housewrap forever"

http://huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagen...emwalloverview

You never "NEED" to use a Drainwrap or Sure Cavity behind the wall, I just thought you were looking for the best way to install cultered stone from your original post. As a matter of fact, most of my competition doesn't use anything behind there work, just lath directly to Tyvek. I feel confident that I'm years ahead of these guys, am limiting my liability to the future mold & rot problems that will be inevitable for some of them, & offering my customers a superior installation. Understand that code in WI only requires you to protect the Tyvek with 15# tarpaper. What you do after that is for your own peace of mind.

I will admit I know nothing about Zipwall, & think it may be un-necessary to install, if using proper WRB's & drainage behind the wall. Just some approx. #'s, if my memory serves me right, as it's been a while since I originally crunched these #'s:
- 2 layers of 15# tarpaper= $.10-.15/sq. foot.
- Tyvek Drainwrap = $.25-.30/ sq. foot.
OR
- 3/16" MTI cavity weep panels = about $.75- 1.00/ sq. foot.
----------------------------

Going off on a tangent but related. I tried to enroll for Masonry class at Milwaukee Area Technical College but couldn't because the classes are only available to those in the Masonry program which had it's registration deadline in Spring for this Fall classes. So I am within the next couple of hours gona see if Waukesha County Technical College will allow me to take Masonry classes though I doubt it as they also require being in a program.

Thanks for the reply.
Spud, have I got a deal for YOU!

You pay ME the tuition, come work for me for 3 weeks (no pay of course!), & I can guarantee YOU that you have taken more away than any Tech School semester! JUST KIDDING!

After 3 weeks with me & my crew, you'll probably decide to just hire this job out!
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:46 AM   #5
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


I simply consider faux stone products to be the finish coat of a three-coat cementious stucco system and case, flash, and weep accordingly.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:07 AM   #6
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Quote:
No, anything but a WRB. It's design is to allow water thru the front to the back, & it merely serves as an un-obstructed channel to get any water to the base of the wall, & out from behind the wall as fast as possible.
Does water pass straight through the front and also through the back side of the Sure Cavity or does it just pass through the front then enters the channels but does NOT pass through the back side? Is the back side a WRB?

So using a Sure cavity , a wall would look like this?

Sheathing--->Flashing (bottom only) ---->Tvyek/Housewrap---> Tarpaper---->Sure Cavity---->Metal Lathe---->mortar scratchcoat----->Stone Veneer buttered with setting mortar

Does there need to be a housewrap like Tvyek and Tarpaper or will Tarpaper alone suffice?
--------------------------------------------

I talked to a technical Info representative at Huberboard about their Zip Wall System Board and installation of Stone Veneer Siding.

The Rep. on the phone said flashing directly onto their Wallboard then taped with Zip Sealing Tape over the top edge of the flashing would suffice but he emailed me their installation practice and It says:

Install flashing directly on top of Zip Wallboard then tape with Zip sealing tape lapped over top edge of flashing then Water Resistant Barrier for entire wall area . Dam it, I thought I could just forgo the WRB!

-------------------------------------

Reading your response , I understand I need to use tarpaper if Tvyek is used as it is best practice and also now Wis. code. You mention that Tarpaper is a WRB so this would satisfy the Zip Wallboard installation requirement for a WRB between mortar and the wallboard.

I got interested in the Zip system because it does away with a housewrap/WRB . With a housewrap/WRB I think I would have to remove the windows so the WRB/Housewrap can be folded into the window opening??, something I am not keen on doing.

----------------------------------

I am seriously considering ditching the cultured Stone Veneer siding idea because due to weather I am not sure I can accomplish it all , with this daily rain and soon to come cold weather. Especially if I have to remove windows to install tarpaper/WRB and the Sure Cavity requires flashing around windows. Just the short time window is putting me off .

-----------------------------------

I currently just have partial full brick siding on the front, was thinking of just making it total front brick siding. There are no veep holes for this brick siding so I would have to knock it down then install flashing then brick it up. I don't like the color of the brick anyways so knocking it down isn't a big deal for me.

Reason I was looking at the Stone Veneer is
a) like the Stone (flagstones) look over brick
b) can do the sides of the house without need for a concrete footing, currently sides of house has no concrete footing/foundation past the walls.

I don't know how to build a concrete footing, which is a requirement for full brick siding. I assume the front has this footing since it already has full brick siding.

-------------------

Whew soo many questions and typing. Thanks for patiently addressing my queries.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:27 AM   #7
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


A word of caution: manufactured stone as it is often actually installed is regarded by some water intrusion inspectors (myself included) as the next EIFS, especially when installed at frame construction and over conventional sheathing and vapor retarders... only it's often a lot more expensive, time consuming, messy and destructive to diagnose problems behind faux stone than behind EIFS, for example moisture meters don't work through manufactured stone, you have to drill and probe, or remove sections of material to determine what's happening below the stone.

See, for example: http://www.impressionsinstone.biz/II...tPractices.pdf
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Last edited by Michael Thomas; 08-29-2009 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:17 AM   #8
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.




GREAT POST MIKE
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:30 AM   #9
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
That is scary.

I haven't even looked at flashing for windows for cultured Stone Veneer.

Makes me lean more and more towards sticking with the full brick veneer siding with the 1" air cavity.

Do I still need flashing for windows with full brick veneer siding? Since the house only has full brick veneer going up to waist level for most of the front, it doesn't reach the bedroom windows but the living room window has brick on the bottom and on 1 side. I'll post a pic soon to better explain.

Edit, picture

Last edited by Spud; 08-29-2009 at 12:09 PM. Reason: added pic.
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:18 PM   #10
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


If you apply it as I said, all of those issues are addressed by long proven methods. It is NOT EIFS and it is NOT a new system. It is a finish coat for a traditional 3 coat cementious stucco wall system. Done to those specifications, there are no issues remotely similar to EIFS, which can have issues even when it is applied to it's own standards.

Comparing the 2 is not a valid statement.
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I simply consider faux stone products to be the finish coat of a three-coat cementious stucco system and case, flash, and weep accordingly.
Manufactured stone is a very different system from hard coat stucco, for example stucco is self supporting, while faux stone often requires mechanical support.

For example, here's what what happens when a builder assumes that manufactured stone can be treated as as an adhered, self-supporting material like the three coat stucco above it, with a continuous drainage plane behind them.


Fig 1 Water table support and flashing as specified.


Fig 2 Water table as built, tilting back toward the wall as its suport failed, no flashing to top exterior surface of table and incorrect support.

My point is not that it cannot be done properly, my point is that it is not done properly - that average contractors have a great difficulty properly installing even much simpler systems, and real-world when you specify more complicated systems, you are specifying failure.
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Last edited by Michael Thomas; 08-29-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:02 PM   #12
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Begging your pardon, but that detail is not done according to specifications for 3 coat stucco. I do not reacall stating that you should use faux stone manufacturers details, I thought I was clear that you should not.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:03 PM   #13
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J-Weep / Flashing for exterior cultured stone veneer wall.


And just as an FYI, it doesn't matter what system you use, if you do it wrong, that is not an indicator of the capabilities of the system.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Begging your pardon, but that detail is not done according to specifications for 3 coat stucco. I do not reacall stating that you should use faux stone manufacturers details, I thought I was clear that you should not.
I'm perhaps getting a bit confused as this discussion has run across several posts.

Are you recommending that installers disregarding the manufacturer's installation instructions, and installing faux stone materials as though they were a three coat stucco system?
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
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And just as an FYI, it doesn't matter what system you use, if you do it wrong, that is not an indicator of the capabilities of the system.
Well, that was certainly the initial position taken by the EIFS manufactures...
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