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Insulating with spray foam and caulking

30K views 73 replies 17 participants last post by  chandler48 
#1 ·
Hi, I'm planning on doing some insulating to help with my oil bills. I have an old home that scored a 0 on the blow test. The guy said he had never done one with a score of 0 before.
Im going to add some pics in a few min to show what areas I'm working on. I'm using something called Draft stop. Its a removable weather stripping, that's like caulking. I have old wooden and lots of air leaking around the floor doors and where pluming comes through floor.
The reason for Draft stop its just till spring and i wont have to worry about taking the time to make it look nice. ( I'm on crutches so limited to bending and reaching. )
I also plan on using spray foam. I know it can be very messy but hopes it will help. I want to spray along where the house meets the basement and want to make sure there isn't a problem with this. (I'm not sure of the proper words to use, that's why I'm trying to explain the places. ) Also where that beam meets the floor above it. I would then put in some of the reg. insulations and put up a vapour barrier. I would like to spray foam anywhere i find a hole big enough to fill. But I know sometimes you can over do things and make more work for you after that
 
#3 ·
Low expanding Foam, or reg expanding foam.

Is it better to use reg spray foam that expands alot, or Low expanding foam. For some reason I think that the low exp would be better for a few reason but don't know if I'm right with what i'm thinking. I feel for some reason it would be better and act more like a vapour barrier. Where the other one expands so much it may loose some of that quality of vapour or insulation value. The other thing is clean up, because the one that expands a lot can make a mess and leave you cutting lots out?
Also Price wise, if they are basically the same, thinking its better to get reg. that expands alot.
 

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#4 ·
Here are somemore pics to show what i'm trying to do. In one pic you can see the insulation and some kind of a wrap goes up behind it, almost like wax paper? Others are holes I want to plug by oil pipes coming in the house and plumbing and vents going up through the floor.
 

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#5 · (Edited)
Based on experience, I'd stay away from the "Great Stuff" crap they sell at Home Depot. It expands a lot and is extremely sticky (a huge mess to clean up if you get any on places where you don't want it).

I'd recommend going for the low expansion type rather than high expansion because it's easier to gauge whether/when you've sprayed enough. High expansion foam expands for hours, you'll have a lot more mess to clean up if you overdo it.

Another reason for not using the high expansion foam (or overdoing foam application in general), is that as the foam expands, it can crack warp your window frame, etc. The more pressure from overexpansion and the more you overdo it, the greater the risk of damage. With the low expansion foam, it's easier to eyeball when to stop with the application, and if you're off slightly, the foam isn't going to expand that much.

Lastly, ask the clerk at the store to show you the low expansion foam that's designed for doors and windows (I think DAP makes a product for this). I'm guessing the chemical formulation is such that it reduces expansion related damage (warping/cracking surrounding structures), which likely makes it your safest option for spray insulating.
 
#6 ·
Be very careful using expanding foam in confined spaces like around doors.windonws. Once it expands to fill the space it may continue expanding causing drywall and door/window frames to bow. Use the "minimal expanding" version.

Something that will help a lot, in warmer weather maybe, is to remove all the trim from doors and windows and insulate the air gaps there. Carefully pry off the trim after scoring the edges with a utility knife to break paint, caulk lines.
 
#9 ·
I've used Great Stuff foam a lot, and it can make a mess, especially if you spray it on things that you don't really want to spray it on.

I've also used DAP low expansion foam. I've come back years later and found that the DAP had a crack running through it. Great Stuff foam is permanent. The DAP is also soft (but brittle) when cured. So if it's in a location where it might get hit by something it's probably not a good option.

I've never used any other brands, so maybe there are better alternatives, but Great Stuff gets the job done. I'd say if your pipes are so weak that expanding foam cracks them then it was time to replace them anyway! :laughing:

I've never had any problem with it flexing my windows or doors, but I don't try to fill the cavity in one application.

If I was in the original poster's position, I'd get the great stuff or other similar hard, expanding foam, and start spraying it around the metal pipes in the walls and other vertical surfaces to see how it works.

Regarding insulation value, the regular is probably better because it has larger air cavities. They are both closed cell foams, so no air can blow through them. In that one photo you have electric wires -- I'd use a fire blocking caulk around them. There are various different types of that ranging up to $20 a tube. I used the cheapest, which was about $5. Read the label and find one that's rated for residential use.
 
#12 ·
Your first photo looks like the pipe may be wrapped with asbestos cloth although it can't be confirmed from here. If this is in an interior space where the fibers could get airborne, you might want to get it removed by a professional. Don't remove it yourself as you can cause more problems by spreading the fibers. If you have to work near it, try not to disturb it in any way.
 
#13 ·
In the very first picture, that white covering on that pipe, could that be asbestos?

New Brunswick...Canada? or NJ?
 
#16 ·
In the first picture, I'm trying to show how big the gap is around my floor. I put pencil in and show that it is about 2" +. The last pic is where my oil lines come in the house.
I have to say I went through 4 things of caulking and had to go get more. Does it ever have a strong smell, I can smell it my my unit.
 
#17 ·
Ok so that is a wood floor and some really old pink wall and baseboard molding I assume? Whomever installed the floor did not fit it up under the molding. Is it wood or a pergo type floor? Pergo is not connected to the sub-floor so if it is done improperly it has the potential to move. If it is wood I would pull of the baseboard and insulate below in the gap. Burn the old baseboard for heat :) and consider putting in some thicker molding. It will help with the draft and have the added benefit of looking much neater.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Ok so that is a wood floor and some really old pink wall and baseboard molding I assume? Whomever installed the floor did not fit it up under the molding. Is it wood or a pergo type floor? Pergo is not connected to the sub-floor so if it is done improperly it has the potential to move. If it is wood I would pull of the baseboard and insulate below in the gap. Burn the old baseboard for heat :) and consider putting in some thicker molding. It will help with the draft and have the added benefit of looking much neater.
The reason the floor doesn't seem to meet it is that it is lower that the baseboard. Not out from the wall. The idea was to take off that small trim and put matching trim that's in the house. The trim is about 1" thick by 6 or 7". It would not have looked like that if the trim had been done. The trim was never done because it wasn't a priority on my list of things to do. I didn't want to cover that gap till I new what to do with it. I think the trim may have been up like that because there was carpet I ripped out that was gross. I don't think i did that bad of a job laying the floor. Better than the gross carpet and I think its better to leave it open till you can do them right instead of covering it and forgetting about it. Which I know me and that's something I could do very easily. :) I'm not a pro but Its lasted a long time and is still in good shape.
I discovered that any part of the house that they seemed to have renovated by removing the slats and plaster they Did a really poor job. Not just with the finish work but they didn't insolate behind it. I'm discover lots of problems with this place.
 

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#18 ·
#29 ·
Sure, asbestos was at one time woven into a cloth and around pipes was the #1 place you would have found it.

Now whether or not you have asbestos is anyone's guess without testing, but it looks like it to me and one other poster but it would more likely be asbestos if that pipe was carrying something warm or cold like a heating pipe or something...no reason for it otherwise.

But if that pipe (and I can't tell if it's going north-south or east-west) is asbestos, then common sense says you'd best take care of that as a potential heath problem as opposed to an energy conservation problem. I mean, money you can always replace, not so your health.

We have an old asbestos mine now discontinued up here in Quebec. So if you're in New Brunswick, Canada I'd have to say there was a good chance that is. But if in New Brunswick, NJ, maybe not. Either way, not a simple matter to contend with.
 
#30 ·
OMG, Does anyone know any kind of cost for having it removed?? Its ok isn't it unless its moved or touched? Or can there still be a problem because its wrapped around the heat pipe. I think I removed some if this about 2 yrs ago off a back vent. I've been looking at the last two vents that have it thinking I want to remove/fix it. I'm glad that I didn't do the rest of it. Is there any way to test if its made you sick/ or infected you? I'm in NB Canada.
 
#31 ·
The best thing to do is not touch it. The fibres that are released when you move it are what does the most harm and especially if you breathe them in. And there's no way to tell if it has done any harm to you now except to say that's between you and your doctor.

But we can't change the past - but can affect the future. Grab the Yellow Pages and look up Asbestos and Mould Mitigation Services somewhere in there or phone your city hall. Asbestos problems go beyond your city, your province and even our country boundaries so it's a big problem that ought to be tended to. But someone at city hall should be familiar with what services are offered in your community, if not talk to the mayor about why not.

We are in the restoration business so I have an idea of the costs to remove asbestos; every case will be different so I can't speak to specifics but the whole area has to be sealed off, full protective gear provided for the works, the material has to be properly disposed of and air samples have to be taken. 3-man crew for about a day...washing, cleaning, hauling away - everything is required. Would your house insurance pay for it? don't know that either, some do.
 
#33 ·
I can't see my insurance paying for it, they aren't the best. Been looking for a new insurance company.
Its just in that one spot. going up in the wall. to second floor, my bedroom. I now that alot of my duct work is old and rusty, some places it has holes. If there's holes in that long the way its possible it could be blowing that into my room. :(
I think I removed some of that stuff a few years back like 4 or 5. I thought it was cloth, so if I did I wouldn't have had any kind of mask on. I've actually been off work for a few years because I've not been feeling well and they can't figure out what is wrong with me. They kind find problems but haven't been able to figure out the reason. So guess I will talk to my doctor. I did ask them if it could do with my reno work as I have a few old places and tend to do alot of demo. She didn't think so. Guess its a lesson to me, always be careful.
 
#34 ·
I would agree. Recommendations are to leave it alone. It presents no danger unless it is so deteriorated that the fibers are falling off of it.
Is it recommended to encase the whole thing in new wrap ?

I know in one old basement this was the best method as leaving it alone meant that it would be hit eventually just by moving stuff around in the basement
Pipes were fairly low
I even built a soffit to enclose one set of pipes
 
#36 · (Edited)
It may be possible that air currents blow asbestos fibres around the rooms, especially if it 'flaps' - but we can't tell that for sure -and yes, it may have something to do with your not feeling well - although many others things might also be as guilty in older homes. Sick-building syndrome and all that, mould, dust etc all might contribute. It's been known to happen.

And I'm not well placed to recommend any half-measures like encapsulation, or wrapping of asbestos etc when it comes to peoples health. I haven't time to do such things half-way. Remove it, is all I can recommend. Now your own proximity to it may affect the timetable of that, but in the long run, it'll have to go.

Just as some pople can live with large amounts of mould in their homes, most of us already do but then again some can't. So, if there are any indications of ill-health and mould s and asbestos are in the picture, how can you ever make a rational diagnosis without removing them?

It's like a cat chasing it's tail.


As for the laminate flooring someone installed, all that is needed is quarter-round and that'll hide those gaps. That space is needed for expansion/contraction.

But back to the foam...if your house scored a 'zero', it means that there are leaks to the outside, e.g. near the rim joist you mentioned, not necessarily where the toilet chase goes through the upstairs floor and meets the soil stack. Sure, there's a gap but filling that wouldn't affect your score. The gap where the oil pipes come into the house is more what I am thinking about....
 
#37 ·
Scored a 0 on a blow test. As an experienced Energy Auditor who has done well over a thousand tests, I have never ever, ever heard of any such thing. Must be a scoring system that is within that company or area.

Homes are scored (at least in the US) by a HERS (Home Energy Rating System) index. On that scale, a home built to code (the "reference" home) scores a 100 and a home that uses zero net purchased energy scores a 0 (that would be the best). Leakier older homes can score up to 500 or so (very, very inefficient). Air sealing is a good thing to do as long as it's approached in a methodical way with knowledge behind it.

I can only assume that his/her scoring system must be something different.
 
#41 ·
Scored a 0 on a blow test. As an experienced Energy Auditor who has done well over a thousand tests, I have never ever, ever heard of any such thing. Must be a scoring system that is within that company or area.

Homes are scored (at least in the US) by a HERS (Home Energy Rating System) index. On that scale, a home built to code (the "reference" home) scores a 100 and a home that uses zero net purchased energy scores a 0 (that would be the best). Leakier older homes can score up to 500 or so (very, very inefficient). Air sealing is a good thing to do as long as it's approached in a methodical way with knowledge behind it.

I can only assume that his/her scoring system must be something different.
I'm attaching the top copy of the energy efficiency Evaluation Report. Just so you can see what it says, it may help figure out if its different than you evaluations. ( I thought maybe to that you may think I was over dramatizing it which I know people do sometimes. ) I just covered my address and the file number just for privacy reasons. The energy evaluator also said like you, he had never seen a score of 0 before.

I Spent new years caulking and spray foaming the bottom unit on the other side of the house. It took almost 10 tubes of caulking. But I did every seam, around every window and door frame, around all floor trims top and bottom of trims even wall corners where the previous owner had remove a door and put panel. You may think its over kill but there is a huge difference. I actually called in the furnace people because I thought there was a problem with there furnace because I couldn't hear it working for like 3 days after I did the caulking. I had the furnace people come in and of course as were walking down to the basement we could hear it click on. (Obviously it had been running but it was never going when I would check ) Usually that furnaces runs twice as long as mine so it did make a difference, wish I had done this sooner. I new it would help but never believed it would help as much as it did. I'm going to track the oil use to see how long it will last now that i have done that. I had orderd oil on Dec 19th and it was getting low by the 29 so that's what got my butt in gear.
I also put some pics of the unit that i was doing the caulking and sprayfoam in. You'll see one of the pics is a gap between where the back door meets the kitchen floor. I took the can of spray foam to fill that spot. :)
 

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#38 ·
I've seen fiberglass wrap for pipes too, so you might not have asbestos. If it's in an unfinished space that you don't use, that you don't circulate air from, then it doesn't seem like it could be too big of a potential problem. If you're worried, get a certified industrial hygenist (yellow pages) to inspect it. Probably cost $100, but you'll know for sure.

Regarding the Great Stuff foam, if you spill it on a hard surface, you can scape it off. If you get it in your clothes, it's permanent. If you get it on your hands it will be there for a week or two. You can clean it off of things like clothing with mineral spirits if you get it before it cures.

Since you have an unfinished space to play in, I'd suggest just buying a can for $5 and see if you're happy with the results and the process. Seal around those pipes. If you don't like how it works, nothing lost.
 
#39 ·
I believe Great Stuff is what you want to use. It will not crack a pipe as one poster stated. It can and will push the frame of a door or window if you overfill the cavity. I have used great stuff many many times on doors and windows successfully. Practice where you can see the foam expand, keeping in mind you can add more the following day. Try to make as small a bead as you can. You will get the hang of it quickly but it takes a day or two to see the results.

As for clean up forget the mineral spirits and use acetone. Buy at least a quart at the hardware store. It will clean up you hands and anything else that will tolerate the acetone. Acetone is the main ingredient in nail polish remover, you will recognize the odor.

Rege
 
#42 ·
Gosh, I had to read that report twice to justify a "0" rating...what does the "56" mean then?
 
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