DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum

DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum (http://www.diychatroom.com/)
-   Building & Construction (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/)
-   -   Installing LVL beam flush with ceiling joists (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/installing-lvl-beam-flush-ceiling-joists-172576/)

dpolley 02-21-2013 02:31 PM

Installing LVL beam flush with ceiling joists
 
Good day all,
I'm working on a remodel project to open the kitchen with the family room addition that was added to the back of the house by the previous owner. The wall separating the two rooms used to be an exterior wall, making it an obvious load bearing wall. There is also a point load on this wall due to the LVL beam coming from the addition and stopping at the wall.

On this supporting wall, underneath the ceiling joists, is a double top plate. I want to remove both top plates in order to have my LVL flush with the joists (gives me more head room).

If I do this, where are the king studs secured at the top, now that the top plates were removed? Do they only need to be secured to the LVL once I have it in place or do I need to somehow secure them to the nearest ceiling joist? One end of the beam will go till it reaches an exterior wall while the other will end appx 2ft from the end of the kitchen.

funfool 02-21-2013 03:43 PM

Not sure I fully understand the question, the last one I installed we just put the king studs right under the lvm with no top plate. Although it really would not matter if was a triple top plate. the kings were in the wall on the end of each side of lvm, not out in the room.
The city did ask we put 3 kings on each side. This was fine on one side, left a silly little 2" bump on the other side. So we built a 12" wall on that end to make a corner and remove a bump.

But the lvm is up in the ceiling and supporting the joist and drywall flows through on the ceiling.
So am confused on why the top plate is a issue?

About the point load, with a intersecting beam running into the first beam. It is done all the time. Just need an engineer to calc the load of the first beam to size it correctly to also calc the load of second beam that will hang on first beam :eek:
One 2 story house, we had to have the hanger specially made.

This can all be done, no reason to have the beam or top plates hanging down to interrupt the flow of the ceiling, just makes me wonder what you currently have and pictures do help a lot here.

BigJim 02-21-2013 06:28 PM

If that was an outside wall, did the rafters sit down on the plate there? If so how do you plan to handle the rafters and ceiling joists with the beam?
Several years ago we took out our load bearing wall between the living room and kitchen. I put the support beam above the ceiling joists, supported each end and added studs in the walls under the beam. I attached the ceiling joist up to the beam, worked like a charm.

If there are rafters and ceiling joists to be supported by the beam, you can install the beam over the ceiling joists and slide it back where the top of the beam touches the rafters and tie everything all together there. Just be sure the ends of the beam are supported like they should be.

dpolley 02-21-2013 08:29 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I've attached a couple pictures of what i'm trying to explain.

The ceiling joists end at this wall since it was originally the end of the house. My plan was to set the beam underneath the joists to support the joists/rafters. Should I be setting the beam above the joists and somehow "hanging" the joists from the beam?

You can see the double top plate in one of the pictures (img_0369) and I am trying to see if it's ok to remove that and replace it with the beam. You can see the king stud in the corner which goes from the double top plate down to the lower top plate.

I was told to put 3 jack studs underneath the beam on each end and a single king stud that goes from the bottom top plate to the upper top plate which secures the ends of the beam. But if I remove the upper top plate, there is nowhere to secure the king stud at the top. It would be unattached to anything until the beam was set in place.

Pardon my explanations...I know what I want to say and it makes sense in my head.....not so much when I put it into words....:(

Joe Carola 02-21-2013 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpolley (Post 1121986)
I've attached a couple pictures of what i'm trying to explain.

The ceiling joists end at this wall since it was originally the end of the house. My plan was to set the beam underneath the joists to support the joists/rafters. Should I be setting the beam above the joists and somehow "hanging" the joists from the beam?

You can see the double top plate in one of the pictures (img_0369) and I am trying to see if it's ok to remove that and replace it with the beam. You can see the king stud in the corner which goes from the double top plate down to the lower top plate.

I was told to put 3 jack studs underneath the beam on each end and a single king stud that goes from the bottom top plate to the upper top plate which secures the ends of the beam. But if I remove the upper top plate, there is nowhere to secure the king stud at the top. It would be unattached to anything until the beam was set in place.

Pardon my explanations...I know what I want to say and it makes sense in my head.....not so much when I put it into words....:(

Who told you to do this? Who spesc'd the lvl?

dpolley 02-21-2013 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Carola (Post 1121989)
Who told you to do this? Who spesc'd the lvl?

I hired an engineer who spec'd the lvl and told me how to support it. Now to get it installed i'm confused if it should be below the ceiling joists or above them? and if the beam can be flush with the joists or do I need to keep the top plate?

djlandkpl 02-21-2013 08:46 PM

How long is the span you are trying to cover with the beam?

carpdad 02-21-2013 08:51 PM

In your case, you don't need the king studs, just the load baring jacks. Cut the plates to the opening size and add jacks to the remaining walls. The header will sit on the plates of the remaining walls.
When cutting the ceiling joists, measure the cut lines 1/8" more from the plate on each end, make sure the sawsall blade isn't cutting the joist at too much of bevel (square cut as possible) and use the joist hangers. Use the level to draw the cut lines plumb.

hand drive 02-21-2013 08:57 PM

a couple of issues stand out. therer is a beam landing (point load) on the wall- that needs dealt with to hold the weight and all of the ceiling joists need temp walls to hold the weight. is it two story?

dpolley 02-22-2013 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djlandkpl (Post 1122001)
How long is the span you are trying to cover with the beam?

I have a 24' beam and i'm trying to use as much of it as possible.

dpolley 02-22-2013 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpdad (Post 1122007)
In your case, you don't need the king studs, just the load baring jacks. Cut the plates to the opening size and add jacks to the remaining walls. The header will sit on the plates of the remaining walls.
When cutting the ceiling joists, measure the cut lines 1/8" more from the plate on each end, make sure the sawsall blade isn't cutting the joist at too much of bevel (square cut as possible) and use the joist hangers. Use the level to draw the cut lines plumb.

So in this scenario the beam will not be underneath the ceiling joists but rather the bottom of the beam will be level with the ceiling? Since the rafters are coming down at an angle along side the joists which come in straight, what type of hanger am I using to secure them to the beam if I use this method? Cutting the end off the angled rafter will leave no flat bottom for the hanger. And do they have double wide hangers to accomodate the rafter+joist together?

jagans 02-22-2013 10:01 AM

So this beam is going to carry 24 feet of ceiling joists, ceiling, Rafters, roofing material, and all the joists and ceiling from 24 feet of the addition, and all the anticipated live loads in your area. What kind of roof is on the addition?

This must be one h--- of a Girder. How deep and how wide is it? Who figured it out, and what do you intend to point load all of this weight to. Hopefully not wood studs.

dpolley 02-22-2013 10:12 AM

2 Attachment(s)
So from what i'm hearing it sounds like a lot of the advice is to put the beam in line or above the joists/rafters. I don't think that's a plausible option since i'm installing the beam at the end of the roof where there is little to no room above the rafters like there would be towards the middle of the house. but to clarify, I can remove the double top plates that are currently underneath the joists and replace them with my beam? And no king studs on the outside of my beam are required?

tjbingha 02-22-2013 10:20 AM

I just had a similar instance in my house. I had some connection questions which I asked around, posted on here, etc, however the easiest thing to do was pick up the phone and call my engineer. If you already engaged him then he more than likely will be happy to help. There are many things you could do here, but the one that he had in mind when he spec'd the LVL is prob. the one you should go with. If you stated your intentions to do it DIY, he most likely will give you the "easiest" way to do this which I believe is to remove the top plate and butt the new beam right up under the rafter/joist. Then use something like Simpson H2.5AZ connectors to secure the connection between the LVL and the rafter (that is what I was instructed to do). You may have to birdsmouth the rafter or use some other specified Simpson hardware, it just depends on what method you are going with. Again, I am not a professional and relied heavily on my engineer to help me with this task. I did not just make the stuff up! The most important thing you have to do is be safe! I had to build a supporting wall on the first floor and a supporting wall in my basement in order to temporarily carry the load.

Regarding the king studs, I have a ballon-frame house with no top plates anywhere. I simply used three jacks three separate spots (20' x 9" x 3.5" Parallam). No king studs were required. I did however put some cat studs in between my new jacks and the next stud over, just for peace of mind. Good luck and be sure to let us know how it goes!

dpolley 02-22-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagans (Post 1122302)
So this beam is going to carry 24 feet of ceiling joists, ceiling, Rafters, roofing material, and all the joists and ceiling from 24 feet of the addition, and all the anticipated live loads in your area. What kind of roof is on the addition?

This must be one h--- of a Girder. How deep and how wide is it? Who figured it out, and what do you intend to point load all of this weight to. Hopefully not wood studs.

No, the addition has a point load only on the beam that I am going to install. The engineer took everything into consideration and spec'd the beam for me. If I can't trust the engineer then who can I trust...right? And the beam will have 3 jack studs on the end, and quad 2x4's underneath where the point load is on the beam. 3.5"x14"x24' engineered beam.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.