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The huge water in basement epic picture thread. Money has run out, water hasn't.

10K views 43 replies 9 participants last post by  coderguy 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello!

I've asked about parts of this before; and you can see my house in the "526 Lincoln House" thread in the showcase. I've posted in many threads and even sent some personal messages for help. I've done a ton of work and we have spent the rest of our money. So, instead of asking questions in other threads/etc; I've decided to post all the related pictures to give everyone a full picture of the problem and hopefully will get some help getting to the bottom of this (and I will get to the bottom of this).

The problem: Water is coming in through the first and second step of our basement "bilco" stairway. We had an interior drain tile system installed; and the water hasn't drained away from the foundation. We got a new sump pump/etc. The water started months ago; and runs 24 hours a day. Recently I half-drilled two weep holes in the side, and water runs constantly from them. Below is a full picture of the situation; I will reply to this post if I run out of picture room. I know that people have said it is just water form the window well; but wouldn't that eventually drain away? Especially if they drilled weep holes when they installed the drain tile? (They were supposed to?!?!)

1) I have diggers hotline marking the property in the next couple of days; hoping for a water line, but doesn't sound like it...
2) I've made some of the grading corrections and I'm adding gutters to the garage this weekend. The progress is all at the front of the house; which doesn't have a problem anyway.

When replying please remember that I am willing to rip everything out at this point. The 3-seasons room, bilco; whatever.

Picture from when it started:


Picture taken tonight (sorry to take it tonight; the one I took with the rest is missing...):











If I open either of the two access panels for the drain tile system; it is perfectly dry on either end. The middle where it crosses the doorway and there is a huge drain now; is a constant flow into the system/sump.

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!
 
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#2 ·
What is with the drain line in the last picture pointing towards the a/c unit? Take a picture standing farther away, so we can get a better idea of the lay of the property. I can tell you right now, the problem is a drainage issue. Not enough downspouts to move rainwater away from the foundation. If your current downspouts enter the ground, I would stop that and get them to drain away from the structure about six or eight feet. You can use plastic drain tile, or get downspout extenders that drain water away aprox five or so feet. Only way to fix the foundation, is to dig down, and use the appropriate materials to seal the foundation, and place a good french drain tile system in place. Since you are stating you are out of money, that is going to be a big issue, due to it will cost at the cheapest way aprox $50, more expensive to fix, can be anywhere $5,000 or more.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the reply!

I actually pulled the end of that drain line up last weekend; it used to be barely visible. I'm planning to dig it out and see where it ends this weekend.

The front downspouts have been corrected and are away from house. One used to end on top of the porch! :-( The rear downspouts on both sides still enter Milwaukee's old "combined" system. You can see one on the left side of the second to last picture. The city inspector was here after the drain tile was installed and said they are functioning fine. The problem with disconnecting them is where to run things.

I will take pictures from further away and post. I will also measure the slow of the backyard.
 
#3 ·
where the hell is that much water comming from?

1. what have recent weather conditions been, is there that much water in the ground?

2. what is the local water table.

3. busted water pipe?


i dont understand why its so wet....if it is from the environment (rain, etc) then you will never keep it out unless you waterproof from the outside ($$$).

since you say it does this 24/7, i am concerned it is more than wet ground...like a broken pipe or water table issue --- if the water table has risen then your current drain system may be inadequate.
 
#5 ·
Weather in Milwaukee has been horrible :-(
It has been a bit rainy; but we had a really warm dry period and I checked it daily and even left the bilco doors open for lots of air - it didn't stop.

I'm not sure about the water table; wouldn't the interior drain tile system be wet at the access points?
 
#8 ·
The water flow isn't fast enough to make it run constantly; which was the reason I tried to drill two weep holes. I thought if the water could get out it would drain away.. The old sump was going off every half hour or so? It is hard to say with the new one; as it doesn't shake the house and is pretty quiet.

I will take the lid off tonight and watch it.
 
#7 ·
( i hate this part ! )

IF the major source of the infiltrating water is around the steps, dig - dig on the outside ! bsmt systems has taken the 'french drain' to pretty-boy land but, in reality, its still a pipe under the floor altho has less carrying capacity,,, you'll need an exterior sump & pump surrounded by clean 1 1/2"- stone & soil filter cloth,,, you'll also need some shoring to prevent soil collapse while someone knowledgeable finds the directional flow of the wtr,,, you'll then need a pipe riser ( we use 24" corrugated hdpe ) so you can have access to svce the pump, etc.

most wtrproofing salesmen just want to manage interior leaking as its much easier to guarantee - most h/o buyers like it better 'cause its cheaper than exterior excavation,,, none of this is at odds w/any previous post

good luck !
 
#10 · (Edited)
IF the water isn't running enough to make the pump turn on to discharge the collected water, that would be an indication it could be still draining into the sump BUT then hitting the soil UNDER the sump & soaking the soil underneath OR can't reach the sump due to blockage in the drainage system tho the 2nd's less likely,,, it could ALSO be an indication bsmt system's interior work was unnecessary & was based on guarantee rather than problem solving.

based on the pictures you post, there's tons of avenues for wtr to infiltrate & none have been addressed so far !
 
#12 ·
I was told by four different companies it couldn't be fixed. Basement systems was the only one who agreed to do anything; which to their credit they were very clear it was only a solution to water gathering on the basement floor. Although we all agreed the water should all drain away from the foundation after the tile was installed...

One guy honestly stood there; turned and said "so ok, what are we fixing?". Sigh.
 
#14 ·
George,

Can you live with the wet steps on the outside of the door? If so, it would be fairly easy to remove the lowest landing at the steps, repour about 1" lower than the basement floor, and run a small drain in the middle of it to either the adjacent trench drain, or better yet, directly to the sump crock. It may not be the ideal way to control the water, but it should certainly be something you can handle with minimal damage to the wallet.


I would think that the main problem is a number of factors from what I can see:

- Those stairwells are rarely draintiled on the exterior. Mine at home certainly has no draintile, nor do most I've run across.

- Most of those stairwells walls, especially the one farthest from the basement, don't go down to the bottom of house footing. They typically step-up away from the house, making them very hard to effectively damproof & draintile.
- It's been a wet spring & summer so far. There's no doubt that the water table is high.
- You're in an older subdivision apparently, with small lots, different elevations between neighboring properties, and very little room to effectively grade the yard away for optimal watershed w/o effecting the neighboring property(s) in a negative manner.


There are many other options, but most of them are too obtrusive to recommend without trouble shooting the issues in person. If you're interested, my offer still stands. I'd be willing to take a look at it in person & see if I can give you some suggestions, free of charge of course. You would just need a little patience........ :laughing:

Best of luck.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Here is the sump pump, it is filling but not from the drain tile. Just water seeping in through the weep holes. The gray pipe coming in from the drain tile is completely dry. The sides near the door are all wet; so water is flowing down into the sump.

The weep holes I drilled in the stairs seem to have helped somewhat; as the water flow through the weep holes is much less.




The black pipe is apparently the worst french drain system ever...



It runs from the base of the triangular grass section and follows the sidewalk; then curves around the garage and goes under the brick stairs there... There is no crushed rock and there is no mesh covering until about 3 feet from the garage. Sorry they are hard to see; it started getting dark. The pipe wasn't buried very well either; there were large air pockets under long lengths of it.




Finally here is a fresh picture of the stairs; and a picture of the hole I dug tonight; I decided to dig in the window well as it couldn't collapse on me. I got about 5 inches from the depth of where the weep holes I drilled are. I started to hit a clay/mud substance about then. I couldn't really dig further without more equipment/time. I worked long hours again so I didn't start until late :-(





I hope I didn't miss answering any questions.

I'm working on a diagram of the yard and a plan of what I might like to do; but I want to wait and see if jomama comes down as it may change the plan...

Thanks for all the help so far!

edit: Thought I would add some information:

1) Multiple contractors said they "couldn't get a digger in the back yard to dig the foundation anyway".
2) Multiple contractors said they would only remove the stairs by taking down the top 2 and then filling it in.
3) All of the debri you see in the one picture (the large masonry bricks or whatever they are called) were dug out of the front side yard before regrading it. Some kind of crummy retaining wall thing.
4) Not pictured, on the neighbors to the west side; the grade is above the foundation at the back of the house; I'm having nightmares about that episode of Holmes were the main beam rotted because of this..
 
#19 ·
That's an interesting way to access the basement. Is that the only way or is there a way indoor too? If yes I would add a tarp or some other water seal over those doors to see if that stops water from getting in. At least as a temporary measure. Once you confirm you could do a more permanent fix. It looks like that whole foundation/area needs a lot of work though. I have a minor water problem compared to this and it can be quite costly and lot of work to do. Have not started on my project yet. Still debating between DIY or outsource. It's a lot of work that is involved.
 
#20 ·
Water isn't coming down the stairs; it is coming out of them. For a month period I tested this to make sure. I covered the window well and bilco with a tarp; and sealed it down; Didn't change anything.

I've been following your thread. My wife isn't happy when I bring up digging out the foundation myself; but I will if I have to.
 
#22 · (Edited)
This is an image from a foundation companies website:



This doesn't seem right to me? It has the grade above the joist instead of low on the foundation and the lightweight stone seems to go really high up the wall. These guys came out twice and both times I had a bad experience; so we didn't end up hiring them... but if this is what I should be going for; then I can start to plan?
 
#26 ·
This is an image from American Foundation Specialists website:


This doesn't seem right to me? It has the grade above the joist instead of low on the foundation and the lightweight stone seems to go really high up the wall. These guys came out twice and both times I had a bad experience; so we didn't end up hiring them... but if this is what I should be going for; then I can start to plan?
That's fairly close to what we would do for a foundation repair as well, with a few exceptions:

- Obviously, the grade needs to be lower than the siding by at least 6" (optimally).
- We would just run the foam down to the footing to protect the damproof coating.
- We'd also try to place the tile next to the footing, OR run one on top if it was the only option. It really depends on the placement of the existing cross bleeders.


There's really nothing wrong with that much stone IMO or my experience. We typically take 2-3" stone to within 18" of grade, and then fill the balance with spoils & topsoil over filter fabric. It may seem like the stone would attract more water but it really serves to get any water near the foundation down the wall to the ext. draintile - bleeders - int. draintile - sump crock as fast as you possibly can. The longer water can lay against the wall, the more apt it is to find a weak point in the wall to leak through.
 
#23 ·
Yeah it seems odd. I'm no expert but it seems you don't want the grading too close to the siding / brick or other "decorative" surface. Figure that a typical winter may have anything from 2 to 6 feet or more of snow packed against the house depending on drifting. When that melts there is lot of surface water that will sit around for a while as the rest of the snow acts as a dam.

Also that's way too much gravel. It will actually "attract" water against the house. You only want like a foot, but they are on the right path with the filter fiber, I think this is better than the sock that goes around the draintile. Larger surface area means less chance of total clog. I would have it pass under the foam though, think of flashing or shingles.
 
#24 ·
I would say that who ever did the drawing was not paying attention. Most likely the person that did it, has never worked in construction, and was just given a raw picture or instructions to work from. Keep in mind that it is an example in how it should be done. The depth of the stone as shown, would be almost six feet deep.
 
#28 ·
Further questions I have....

I've been watching videos and reading. My foundation is cream city in the front and the extension (where the stairs our leaking) is block.

Can the black mastic I've seen applied to foundations be applied to a cream city brick foundation?

Considering the home was built in 1897, it is most likely not that the outside drain tile is clogged; but that there isn't any; correct?
 
#29 ·
Backyard update.

Well, I got a full render of the backyard done; will now start rendering what we would like to do; and hopefully it works with fixing the problem...

The slope from the garage down seems to be just over 4 degrees.

here are some pics....




Questions still standing:
  1. Cany I apply the waterproofing mastic to cream city brick?
  2. How big of a trench will I need?
  3. I'm likely adding a perimeter drain instead of replacing one; due to age?
  4. Can I build a deck over the walk-out (have doors built into floor of deck)?
  5. Is it unhead of to pour a concrete patio/deck and have a drain in it?
 
#33 ·
Questions still standing:
  1. Cany I apply the waterproofing mastic to cream city brick?

    On the exterior, Yes.
  2. How big of a trench will I need?

    You will need to get next to the footing at the base of the wall and have enough room to maove safely. We typically shoot for about 2' at the base, with the trench widening out as it goes up.
  3. I'm likely adding a perimeter drain instead of replacing one; due to age?

    Maybe, maybe no. Is there any evidence that the draintile where tied into the floor drain at one time?
  4. Can I build a deck over the walk-out (have doors built into floor of deck)?

    You could, but I think a new Bilco style door would be easier to use if you didn't.
  5. Is it unhead of to pour a concrete patio/deck and have a drain in it?
Not at all unheard of, you obviously just need to have an area low enough for the drain to exit on your property. Drains are typically the lat resort as well, as their lifespan is never as long as simple surface drainage.

Ok, so here is a rough render of a possible new backyard layout. All of our layout ideas are based on this retaining wall between the garage and the house..

So my previous questions + Can this work?
Yes, that can certainly work. It's just hard to tell for sure without any idea of actual dimensions & elevations.
 
#31 ·
Looks like your basement steps and Bilco are the low spot in the whole property what about the drainage off the other building and the landscaping drainage ?? It might all flow right for your basement .
 
#38 ·
With the room mostly torn out; I'm wondering about a possible problem and wanted to ask about it as part of this thread...

It seems a lot of the dirt under the room was either being taken away somewhere by water or dug out by animals? I removed a couple of the cement blocks so you could see.

Take a look at the pics; how bad is this? Do I just clean up the blocks and go about the normal plan or is there something wrong here that the dirt looks like it is caving in?

Also... should I be starting a new thread or something? Not sure the best way to get more answers/input... :-( It's not my grammar iz iht?




 
#39 · (Edited)
Really need some advice!

Hello,

So I've been cleaning up the yard; stacking the cement blocks (anyone want 84 cement blocks?)

I started trying to dig out the wood that was put against the foundation/etc; all of it extremely rotted. As I got things cleaned up. I noticed there was no mortar in the foundation blocks!!! I can also reach my hand in between the house and the foundation. I tried to dig deeper, but I have hit some strange dirt that my shovel has a terrible time with. You can see it as the orangish dirt in the pics.

Pictures are below. Questions are:

1. How do I temporarily protect this from rain/etc? I'm guessing I shouldn't take the bottom board off; I'm tempted to in order to investigate and take a good picture.
2. I'm wondering if they were possibly closing in the coal chute and were lazy about it? Making the rest of the cinder block foundation fine?
3. We plan to do exterior drain tile, so I'm thinking temporarily cover it and when the wall is excavated we can have it repaired as needed? Or does this require immediate action?
4. The dirt in the area is full of well.... crap. Bits of toy, melted plastic, old tile; old chunks of wood and pavement (not just cement, but what looks like the older pavement stuff). I've also been pulling out huge roots (inch diameter!). I'm assuming as part of putting in the drain tile; we'll need to not only move this dirt out of the way, but get rid of it - bringing in new dirt? Or will it not matter if we plan to do a paver patio?
5. I'm freaking out. This continues to get worse.




edit: Another important pic...

 
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