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Old 08-29-2011, 06:07 PM   #1
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


We are planning to build a breakfast bar and need to build a pony wall as an extension to the existing wall.

The maximum overhang in the granite countertop on top of the pony wall will be 12" on the bar side and 6" on the cabinet side like what's shown in this image:


Because I do not want any corbel support, I wonder how we can frame this pony wall for the worst case scenario -- say, someone puts his kid on the overhang. We don't have kids, but my hubby says he will not want to be reminding our guests that they cannot do this or that in our house, so our remodel is being done with all sorts of worst case scenarios in mind.

I got the impression that some sort of metal bracket is needed, but I don't really have a clear idea how to execute it correctly and where we can get the needed hardware. Does anyone have some pictures or links to share? TIA!
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:13 PM   #2
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


I think a couple of simple heavy duty "L" brackets attached to the top of the wall framing will work. Drywaller can cover them and they can be glued to the bottom of the granite. If the cabinets on the other side are securely screwed to the pony wall, it will help keep the wall from pulling away.
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:25 PM   #3
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


Thanks. Should the L brackets be attached to the bar side of the studs or the cabinet side? Either way, do you knotch the studs to sit the brackets flush? And should the angle be slightly greater than 90 degrees so they can be preloaded when the granite is set down? Also, we probably will be putting down 3/4" plywood under the granite. So we actually glue the plywood to the metal studs (and the top plates) and then glue the granite to the plywood?

Sorry for all the questions. Now you see what I mean by not having a clear idea how to execute it.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:53 PM   #4
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


You are asking great questions. I like the way you think. Notching in is a good idea. That will keep the drywall flush. The wall could be furred out to do the same thing. If you shim out the bracket slightly, this will allow for the deflection. I would imagine an 1/8 to 1/4" of deflection would be possible.
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Old 08-29-2011, 09:56 PM   #5
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


Call the folks putting in the tops and ask them what you need to furnish in the framing for them to install the tops so you don't have any issues. They may tell you it's not possible or they may ask that you frame the wall with 2x8 or other sized materials. If you don't frame it to their specs, they are not going to install the tops- count on it.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:19 PM   #6
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


I have delt with this many times and the best way I have found out is to use a 1/4" flat stock 3" wide and notch out the pony wall so the flat bar is flush with the top plate. On the 12' side I would go 10" off the wall and on the 6" side go with 4". If it is a 2x4 wall with 1/2" drywall the plate would be about 18 1/2" x 3" x 1/4". Pre drill for holes to secure the rough top and screw it to the top of the wall. You can do this every 3" of counter top, I have stood on this before the granite was installed and it works great. I have never had a cracked slab and I like to do this instead of corbels.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:17 PM   #7
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Call the folks putting in the tops and ask them what you need to furnish in the framing for them to install the tops so you don't have any issues.
We are not there yet. This is a DIY project, so we are taking one step at a time. The style works better for me anyway because I can't (or refuse to) decide on what granite top to get until I have the cabinets installed.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:29 PM   #8
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


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Pre drill for holes to secure the rough top and screw it to the top of the wall. ..
Hi havalife, I assume a 18v cordless drill will not cut it, right? Did you use any special drill and drill bit for it? I assume the hole needs to be counter sunk (or whatever that's called) so the screw top can sit flush, right? Can you tell me what kind of screws (size and type) you use for this application? I love Home Depot n 'all, but I get dizzy when I stand in their hardware isle -- hundreds of options just for screws.
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Old 08-30-2011, 02:47 PM   #9
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


You could use and 18v drill but you had better have a lot of batteries. I use a power drill and metal drill bits with oil in hand. What I do is put 5 holes where it is going to set on the wall and 2 from the bottom under the top. You can use aluminum if you cant get any metal stock and I have used 3" deck screws before to hold it on the wall with no issue. You will want use a bigger bit for the countersink and then drill the size of hole you need. I like to use construction glue when I set them on the wall and also when the rough top is set. If you do it this way don't forget the wall holes are on the top of the stock and the holes for the rough top will be on the other side. When you cut the wall so the plate sits flush make sure you have the cutout level.
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Old 08-30-2011, 03:09 PM   #10
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


Havalife, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge!
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:20 AM   #11
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


Our local steel supply has 1/2"x3" flat plates that can be cut to length. The gave me the name of a guy who can do the welding. So, at this point, this is the framing diagram I came up with (click on image to see full size):







The above only shows the above-floor part. For our pony wall setup, the own way it can tilt is tilting towards the bar side, right? I was thinking about making three flat plates in L shape. The vertical piece attaches to the 4x4 stud, it goes through the floor, and the horizontal piece is fastened to the bottom of blocking that runs between floor joists. There is one floor joist running along the pony wall underneath.

we had decided to cover the entire bar side of the wall with plywood underneath 1/2" drywall. We plan on using 1/2" plywood for that. Should we use 3/4" instead?

As you can see in the images, I use 4x4 for three studs and the top plate. Should I use stacked 2x4 instead?

Any comment regarding the plan or any general suggestion will be appreciated. Thank you!
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:30 PM   #12
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


I really don't see the need for the ones that do not attached to the studs. I just always the ones that attach to the studs and eliminate the other ones. Since I did not have a leg to keep them from tilting they really are going to do much good. Now if you really wanted to be safe you could put the studs at 8" centers and alternate which side of the studs you attached to.

Attaching to the cabinet side will actually make the seating side stronger because the forces will be down into the studs instead of upward on the screws into the top of them. Even if you don't add additional studs I would to all of the attaching to the sides of them on the cabinet side!

1/2" drywall should be fine because sheetrock really doesn't have any significant strength anyway! As far as strength goes a 4x4 is about the same as doubled 2x4's, the only advantage is it will be probably easier to find straight 2x4's than it is 4x4's!

Last edited by Msradell; 09-02-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:16 AM   #13
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How to frame pony wall for overhanging top without corbel support


The phrase "over-kill" comes to mind.

Use some 1-1/8" ply for the base, use 3" long square drive deck screws into the ply. and double 2x4 top plates. Every 8" O.C. 1/2" from both sides, adhere the granite or whatever top to the ply, call it a day.

Andy.
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