Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-04-2008, 11:19 PM   #16
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Share |
Default

Header question


This is what a hanger looks like, although the two you'd use (one at each end) would be wider to accomodate the material. Hangers would be a good idea. Teco nails are not necessary, and are actually incorrect for use in many, if not most hangers. They're too short. When used, there can be significant load reduction. You should use "10 common" nails in this hanger, at least on the diagonal nails through the diagonal holes on the sides. For the face nails, 10d teco's can be used because they won't poke through the 2x10 joist, but it is critical that the diagonal nails are full length.



You can use 2-2x10's if 4x10 is not available to you. It will work the same, provided the two pieces are nailed together with several nails.

Here's a link to the hanger. Any box store should have it.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...rs/LUS-HUS.asp

Toenail your blocking in first, nice and secure. Then add the hanger and nail it off.

Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 11:26 PM   #17
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
Are screws always wrong to use for framing / structural stuff? Why?
I should have clarified that statement Jamie. Good question. No, your average deck screw or drywall screw has no place in framing or structural applications. Not even in structural applications on decks. Gotta use nails or more substantial screws like lags. I've been known to use screws to frame non-structural elements like soffits, shower seats, or fur-outs, but that is it.

For joist hangers, screws are only allowed if they're supplied with the hanger. Some heavy-duty beam hangers and other structural connectors come with special lag screws called SDS screws, which are structural application screws. Your average residential joist hanger has to be nailed with the correct size of nails as specified by the manufacturer. I often see deck screws in joist hangers, and it cannot be allowed due to their lack of strength, as Concretemasonry said.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 11:27 PM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by buletbob View Post
where is the lolly column in relationship to this post above? mid span? right under? this will come into play .
Both supports posts will rest about 6" to one side of the main beam/wall in the basement, and the lally column is under the main beam, about 7' away from one of the support posts. The lally column lays directly in the center of the main metal beam, but the metal beam only spans about 1/2 the length of my house, the rest is picked up by a cinder block wall in the basement which forms one wall of my garage. The other support post for my header lands 6" offset of this block wall, rather than the metal beam.

Thanks!
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 11:32 PM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,186
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by dc4nomore View Post
I did some research on the joist hangers and tico nails and now I know what you are talking about. Thank you. But it seems like it might be nearly impossible to get one of those in. The space in between the joists is really small (only about 4"). And the more that I think about it and measure, it seems like the support post for the header (or at least one of the 2x4's it consists of) will fall directly on one of the floor joists. The only thing is that the floor joist that it would fall on is twisted quite a bit. It is twisted so that there is a 4" space between joists at the top and a 5" space at the bottom. Would that really be a problem though?

The support post for the other end of the header will land about two inches away from another floor joist. I could still put in some blocking there, just for extra support (this time, the floor joists are about 16" apart). But on this one, I would only have (easy) access to nail in the joist from one side. The furnace consumes the entire other side.

As far as the temporary supports, I was going to just construct a makeshift wall with top and bottom plates, with maybe four or five support 2x4's. I was going to make is about 6" shorter than my ceiling height so that I could slip a jack under each end and then lift it until it is snug. With the way you are saying, it might be difficult to keep the top and bottom plates from moving while I pound in the support 2x4's. I suppose I could nail the top plate in, and just brace the bottom one against the wall I am removing (don't want to nail into the hardwood floors).

But yes, I will definitely get some pics on here to show before and after. If you would like any pics for clarification of anything, please let me know.

Thanks!
Even if the one set of posts fall on the joist remember that those joists were designed to hold only part of that bearing wall.

You might get by with this and you might not. I suggest that you consider getting someone over there who can help you make sure that what you plan would be acceptable.

With this new information I am not feeling to comfortable with it. If it were a situation of putting in the 4x in than I would have been comfortable with that. I am thinking that of you put a double floor plate to distribute the weight then that might work.

Ultimately you have to decide it this is going to work.
Marvin Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 11:48 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Thanks everyone for the comments. I really appreciate it. But I've got to get to bed now. I'll follow up tomorrow...
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 04:05 PM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Ok, thanks for all the info everyone. I don't think I'm going to be able to use the joist hangers, however. There just isn't enough room in between joists to hammer the nails in. I've decided that I'm going to fill both sides of the joist that that post will fall on with blocking by itself - no hanger. Rather than going with one large 2x10 or 4x10, I was thinking about stacking up 2x4's horizontally in between the joists. I could cut them all to the appropriate length and angle to fit snugly between the "twisted" floor joist. By using individual 2x4's, I should be able to toe nail each one in individually (there is room to end nail from one side also, but not the other side). With a larger 4x10, I might not have the physical space to be able to anchor it securely enough. Any comments on this? Do you think it would be ok?

Thanks!
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 04:29 PM   #22
the Musigician
 
DangerMouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 10,404
Default

Header question


our inspector told me i should leave an 1/8" inch between joist and perimeter beam to allow for expansion. i believe he said something like 'buck and heave'. don't think anyone mentioned that, thought it might be important....
DM
DangerMouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 07:26 PM   #23
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by MdangermouseM View Post
our inspector told me i should leave an 1/8" inch between joist and perimeter beam to allow for expansion. i believe he said something like 'buck and heave'. don't think anyone mentioned that, thought it might be important....
DM
Well noted...thank you.
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 09:37 PM   #24
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

Header question


The 2x4 idea isn't going to work very well, and I'd advise against it. The hanger is very important. If you can't get a hammer in there, I'd suggest renting a palm nailer and a compressor and nailing the hangers in that way.

As for leaving a gap...Not a good idea in my opinion. Lumber doesn't grow, it shrinks. So, my advice is frame it as tight as possible.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 10:19 PM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
The 2x4 idea isn't going to work very well, and I'd advise against it. The hanger is very important. If you can't get a hammer in there, I'd suggest renting a palm nailer and a compressor and nailing the hangers in that way.

As for leaving a gap...Not a good idea in my opinion. Lumber doesn't grow, it shrinks. So, my advice is frame it as tight as possible.
Oh wow...the tools that I never even knew existed. I swear I learn something new every day. I actually just ordered a Dewalt one off Amazon.com. And I've already got two compressors so I'll be set. Thanks termite.

About the gap...now I'm not sure whether a gap in that situation would be ideal or not, but nearly all materials expand and contract with temperature changes. Isn't this why a gap is always left around the perimeter of a room when hardwood floors are put down?
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2008, 09:08 PM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
The 2x4 idea isn't going to work very well, and I'd advise against it. The hanger is very important. If you can't get a hammer in there, I'd suggest renting a palm nailer and a compressor and nailing the hangers in that way.
I bought a palm nailer (very nice, by the way!) and several different types of joist hangers. But unfortunately, there was just no way I could attach all the nails on the joist hangers...even with a palm nailer. Not enough space.

So I went ahead and cut a lot of 2x4's and fit them into the space on either side of the floor joist that one of the support posts for the header will fall onto (support post will land directly on the middle joist in the pics). It is kind of hard to tell from the pics, but the middle joist is actually twisted at a 10 angle. I had to cut all the 2x4's at angles so they would be snug. On the left side where there was a little more room, I stacked up pieces of 2x4's. On the right side, I cut the 2x4's and put them in vertically. Oh and the plywood at the top is just there to fill the small gap between the sub-floor and the main metal support beam - which is at the bottom of the pics - it is painted white.

The 2x4's are all toe nailed individually and nailed to each other. After I remove some things that are in the way, I will be able to end nail from the far right and left. So each set of blocks will only be end nailed from one side - not both.

I know I was advised against doing this, but I really didn't see any other alternative, given the confined space between joists. Craftsman is coming out with a new power nailer - called the auto hammer head or something - and it looks SMALL, even smaller than my palm nailer. So I will buy that when it comes out and IF it will fit up in there, I will try to add the hangers at that point.

What do you guys think? Think it will be supportive enough?

Thanks!


Is there any way to get the pics to post larger? It made me reduce them to less than 100kb...
Attached Images
File Type: bmp blocking resize 1.bmp (99.9 KB, 31 views)
File Type: bmp blocking resize 2.bmp (99.4 KB, 24 views)
File Type: bmp blocking resize 3.bmp (99.9 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by dc4nomore; 10-11-2008 at 09:26 PM.
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2008, 09:30 PM   #27
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

Header question


Congrats on the new palm nailer...Too bad it wouldn't fit! Mine finally died and I miss it...Need to get another one bought one of these days.

As for the fix, although it isn't ideal, if it is the best effort you can do given the circumstances it is certainly better than nothing. I'd suggest keeping a close eye on how it performs, and hope for the best.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2008, 10:37 PM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Yeah the palm nailer is great! I was still able to use it for the toe nailing, I just couldn't get it in there to nail horizontally. It's a shame yours doesn't work anymore...I got mine off of amazon.com for 75 bucks, with free shipping. It's a Dewalt too. You should pick one up!

Yeah you're right - I'll just have to watch it and hope it works out. But it seems pretty sturdy. And like I said, I might be able to add a hanger once that new nailer is available.

I'll try to get some pics up once I finish the whole project. But that probably won't be till next weekend now considering how long this floor reinforcement took me today. And I still have the other post to support...

But thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it.
dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2008, 11:08 PM   #29
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,186
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by dc4nomore View Post
Yeah the palm nailer is great! I was still able to use it for the toe nailing, I just couldn't get it in there to nail horizontally. It's a shame yours doesn't work anymore...I got mine off of amazon.com for 75 bucks, with free shipping. It's a Dewalt too. You should pick one up!

Yeah you're right - I'll just have to watch it and hope it works out. But it seems pretty sturdy. And like I said, I might be able to add a hanger once that new nailer is available.

I'll try to get some pics up once I finish the whole project. But that probably won't be till next weekend now considering how long this floor reinforcement took me today. And I still have the other post to support...

But thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it.
There is a way to nail in tight corners like you have.

Get a deep well socket that fits the head of the nail. Get a long extension. Put the nail in the deep well socket which will hold the nail in place. Take a hammer and pound the end of the extension till the socket is up against the wood. Then get the same size short socket and do it again.

I have gotten in some nails in some really tight places with this technique (had to use a French word cause I just ate some French Fries).

You can also press nails in with a lever if you have something to press up against. Tapping the lever with a hammer can help. I have done this also.

Be creative.

Is it a lot of work? Yes but it does get the job done.
__________________
My idea of a perfect day: No where to go and all day to get there.
Marvin Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2008, 12:12 AM   #30
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 177
Default

Header question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Gardens View Post
There is a way to nail in tight corners like you have.

Get a deep well socket that fits the head of the nail. Get a long extension. Put the nail in the deep well socket which will hold the nail in place. Take a hammer and pound the end of the extension till the socket is up against the wood. Then get the same size short socket and do it again.

Ahh clever idea there with the socket...thank you.

Before I put in all the 2x4's, I was having trouble nailing the plywood to the underside of the subfloor on the right side there in the pics because the floor joists are only about 2" apart. I gave up on the nailing and screwed in some drywall screws by hand by jamming a screwdriver in a large socket and attaching a long extension. I'm surprised I didn't think of doing the same thing for the nails.

But wouldn't that only work in a situation where you need to get deep in between two things? I was having trouble getting up in between the floor joists and then nailing horizontally. I suppose the lever method might work though. It sure would help if you could drill a small pilot hole...but then if you had room to get a drill in there you would have enough room to just hammer it in.

dc4nomore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Basement Renovation Question KUIPORNG Remodeling 234 08-26-2008 08:19 AM
Garage Header Insight red3908v Building & Construction 4 04-27-2008 08:55 AM
One furnace question and one thermostat question lh0628 HVAC 4 10-11-2007 10:17 PM
Moving Header Supports Star Building & Construction 3 09-25-2005 12:50 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.