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tgm1024 11-15-2010 12:55 PM

Harvey vinyl + Vinyl trim.....Do I caulk between them?
 
I have the vinyl windows surrounded by PVC trim (not the one piece welded-to-the-window kind). My contractor says the gap between the window and trim should never be caulked because it'll pull in in the winter and/or push out in the summer.

(Exterior issue)

Is this always the case with Vinyl windows + trim? I have to trust that water that seeps between the window and trim are handled by the tyvek/vicor/zip board/zip tape that happens to be under the trim?

Tom Struble 11-15-2010 06:22 PM

water can sit inbetween 2 pieces of plastic for a long time,maybe it won't hurt anything but i think its best to try and keep it out

that being said i would only caulk the sides and bottom,leave the space at the top for drainage

kwikfishron 11-15-2010 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgm1024 (Post 534676)
I have the vinyl windows surrounded by PVC trim (not the one piece welded-to-the-window kind). My contractor says the gap between the window and trim should never be caulked because it'll pull in in the winter and/or push out in the summer.

(Exterior issue)

Is this always the case with Vinyl windows + trim? I have to trust that water that seeps between the window and trim are handled by the tyvek/vicor/zip board/zip tape that happens to be under the trim?

Pull and push what?

I agree with Tom.

tgm1024 11-15-2010 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwikfishron (Post 534854)
Pull and push what?

I agree with Tom.


Pull and push the caulking itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomstruble (Post 534839)
water can sit inbetween 2 pieces of plastic for a long time,maybe it won't hurt anything

...until it freezes


Quote:

Originally Posted by tomstruble (Post 534839)
but i think its best to try and keep it out

that being said i would only caulk the sides and bottom,leave the space at the top for drainage

(?) Do you mean "leave the space at the bottom for drainage"? Water is gravity driven.

kwikfishron 11-15-2010 06:50 PM

Things expand and contract (pull and push) that’s normal. It’s more important to keep the water out. Use a good polyurethane caulking like Quad or Vulkem. You will get many good years of pulling and pushing service out of them.

tgm1024 11-15-2010 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwikfishron (Post 534878)
Things expand and contract (pull and push) that’s normal. It’s more important to keep the water out. Use a good polyurethane caulking like Quad or Vulkem. You will get many good years of pulling and pushing service out of them.

That what I would have thought. My contractor will be caulking the entirety of my house as an additional contract, but insists that there's no way to caulk between a vinyl window and pvc trim without it looking terrible.

To be clear though: I have no doubt that the pushing and pulling is normal for the window and pvc: vinyl just is not dimensionally stable. The issue was whether or not the /caulk/ would pull into the gap in the winter or push outward in the summer.

Both products (window + exterior trim) are from Harvey Industries.

kwikfishron 11-15-2010 08:31 PM

Personally, I have limited experience with plastic window trim.

Im a wood guy.:thumbsup:

Since both products are from the same manufacture look to them for your definitive answer on what product to use.

Id find it hard to believe they would tell you not to caulk.

Tom Struble 11-15-2010 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgm1024 (Post 534862)
Pull and push the caulking itself.

...until it freezes


(?) Do you mean "leave the space at the bottom for drainage"? Water is gravity driven.


gravity driven huh?ever hear of it being pressure driven,or cappilary action?
no what i mean is at the top of the window where it meets the trim,i wouldn't caulk there,so any water that works its way past the trim can drain free

i would caulk the sides and bottom of the trim where it meets the window

i don't have a clue as to what the installers trying to tell you,but strech and compress is what caulk is supposed to do


until what freezes?

moopey 11-15-2010 10:41 PM

i installed anderson windows this past summer and trimmed them all using versatex pvc trim.

I followed my windows instructions, which included leaved space between window and trim to install backer rod and then caulk over it. this makes the caulk form an hour glass shape and helps with expansion and contraction.

when choosing caulk, after trial and error I ended up using Trim Bonder
http://www.trimbonder.com/trimwork/index.cfm

I first used GE and Dap, with plans to not paint the trim. But after about 3 months both the GE and Dap started to discolor. I've since painted that trim. I haven't had the trim bonder up long enough to see if it discolors, but it is paintable. Unlike the GE crap I originally used and had to scrape off. the trim bonder is also great for filling nail/screw holes.

tgm1024 11-16-2010 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomstruble (Post 534975)
gravity driven huh?ever hear of it being pressure driven,or cappilary action?

Sorry, it may have sounded as if I was being snide, but I didn't intend to be.

Quote:

no what i mean is at the top of the window where it meets the trim,i wouldn't caulk there,so any water that works its way past the trim can drain free

i would caulk the sides and bottom of the trim where it meets the window

i don't have a clue as to what the installers trying to tell you,but strech and compress is what caulk is supposed to do
He's worried about how it looks when it pushes out mostly.


Quote:

until what freezes?
The water.

tgm1024 11-16-2010 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwikfishron (Post 534959)
Personally, I have limited experience with plastic window trim.

I’m a wood guy.:thumbsup:

Since both products are from the same manufacture look to them for your definitive answer on what product to use.

I’d find it hard to believe they would tell you not to caulk.

Well I spoke to the Harvey field office, and they insist:
  1. Yes, it needs to be caulked between the window and the trim.
  2. Elastomeric or Poly based---Elastomeric is more paintable. Neither will yellow in the sun.
  3. Caulk all four sides.
However, this is interesting: Apparently the Anderson rep says not to for their windows. Perhaps it's a design issue?

Thoughts?

kwikfishron 11-16-2010 01:01 PM

If your guy says the caulking won’t look good maybe that’s because he sucks at it.
The difference between a clean and a sloppy caulking job comes down to who’s holding the gun.

tgm1024 11-16-2010 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwikfishron (Post 535217)
If your guy says the caulking won’t look good maybe that’s because he sucks at it.

In all forums and usenet groups there is an odd tendency to bash someone's abilities. It does no good. Let's not descend into ad hominem please.

In any case, apparently there is now an argument within Harvey about this. They're now saying that it is not necessary to caulk between there because the nailing flange is underneath the trim, and is taped to the zip board (or to the tyvek over the OSB). I don't like this answer at all----even if there is a way for the wood to be protected, I don't want the water free to habitually wander under the trim. PVC or not.

tgm1024 11-16-2010 04:38 PM

Ok, further explanation.

The reason that the caulk is not needed is not just that the nailing flange is there, it's that the vicor (or zip tape depending) is effectively sealed against the underside of the trim just by the nature of it being pressed against it.

Further, the water does not wick sideways in these tape/pvc situations, contrary to what I had thought.

I think I will have the windows caulked. If for nothing other than I can deal with any push-out that my contractor (and now Harvey) are warning about. They're saying it's a 6 of one / half-dozen of the other type of thing.

Crimeny.

Tom Struble 11-17-2010 07:35 AM

well that's assuming the water has a safe place to drain away,like i said before water can stay trapped between 2 pcs of vinyl for a very long time and maybe never cause a structural problem,but eventually mold will start forming



i also didn't mean to sound snide:wink:but gravity is just 1 process that drives water,to say water will not wick sideways is wrong


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