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Old 09-01-2010, 02:16 PM   #1
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Garage/Shop Renovation


We have a 2 car garage with a car port that was built as a "shop." it was framed up, has electrical, has a door.... the whole 9. Well no one was using it and it was going to waste so i started to clean it up, realized the wall was rotting at the bottom. ripped out the plywood, insulation and electrical - then installed a row of cinder blocks around the outside perimeter to control the water damage in the future... now is the point where I started to reconstruct it.

So i have the original electrical wiring just waiting there to be put back into the wall. Everything is set secure... here are my two questions I've been looking for answers to for a couple weeks but no great answers...

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1) I kept all the insulation, since it was in just fine condition. I also have foam board insulation, it was free so I'm going to use that too... I was thinking about putting plastic sheeting on the inside of the outer wall of the frame, then foam board, then r-19 insulation, then drywall. So from the outside to the inside it would be: Exterior Wall, Plastic Sheeting, Foam Board, Insulation, Drywall.

Foam and insulation are already in hand, and free... The plastic was an idea of moisture protection... SO... is the plastic a good idea or a bad idea? Plastic sheeting or no plastic sheeting?

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I get very detailed, I apologize, but I need to be as specific with this as possible.

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2) For this new improved shop I will have a couple of power tools; table saw, miter saw, a variety of power hand tools, eventually a bandsaw and lathe.

A) Considering the equipment, what gauge wire should I be running to the outlets?
B) Do I HAVE to run the romex around the highest point of the perimeter, or can I just run it through the studs at the level of where I place the outlets(4')?

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MANY MANY Thanks for any help!!

I just want to be safe and sure about what I'm doing and get a fair and honest answer. Especially if using the plastic sheeting with only worsen the chance of water damage...

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Old 09-01-2010, 02:41 PM   #2
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Garage/Shop Renovation


Why cinderblocks around the outside edge? Cinderblocks and concrete are big hard moisture sponges. Where was the moisture coming from before? What are your exterior details specificly - what is on the outside covering?

Is you garage going to be heated or air conditioned, or just space heated when needed?

What kind of foam board are you working with - they very greatly in R value and permiability?

ROMEX wire has to be protected. If you are keeping it within the stud cavity, you can go across the studs. It was probably set up vertically when the stud bays were open. Remember to give yourself at least 2 different circuits to run outlets off of, so you can run two tools at the same time without drawing too heavy on one circuit - like a dust collecter/vacume and a tablesaw.

12ga Should be fine for most applications, but consider one big outlet, like a 50amp, for a welder or a big air compressor.

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Old 09-01-2010, 03:17 PM   #3
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Garage/Shop Renovation


Quote:
Originally Posted by xxPaulCPxx View Post
Why cinderblocks around the outside edge? Cinderblocks and concrete are big hard moisture sponges. Where was the moisture coming from before? What are your exterior details specificly - what is on the outside covering?

Is you garage going to be heated or air conditioned, or just space heated when needed?

What kind of foam board are you working with - they very greatly in R value and permiability?

ROMEX wire has to be protected. If you are keeping it within the stud cavity, you can go across the studs. It was probably set up vertically when the stud bays were open. Remember to give yourself at least 2 different circuits to run outlets off of, so you can run two tools at the same time without drawing too heavy on one circuit - like a dust collecter/vacume and a tablesaw.

12ga Should be fine for most applications, but consider one big outlet, like a 50amp, for a welder or a big air compressor.
Thanks! and to reply...

Cement Blocks:
The water was just during heavy rain and it would collect at the base and then sat there and rotted away at the framing. a contractor suggested using 4x16 cement blocks to keep the rain out... should i paint them? coat them with something?

Exterior Details:
It has aluminum siding which is slightly beaten up on the outside then behind the siding are 1 x 10's( maybe 12?) then the framing. there are a lot of gaps i was going to fill with spray foam and then put the plastic up.

Temperature Control:
For now it will just be a space heater and in the summer a cool breeze from a fan.

Foam Board:
It's 1 inch thick and is the dimensions of a piece of plywood. I'm not sure on the specifics, it was just free to take.

Thanks for the tips! I forgot to mention there are two plugs that run to a 30amp. will that be sufficient? or should i change to 50?
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Old 09-01-2010, 03:31 PM   #4
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Garage/Shop Renovation


Foam board - is it white and look like compressed little balls (EPS, R3), or is it pink or blue (XPS, R5), or is it a pale yellow with foil on a face(Polyiso, R6.5)?

As for the water - that is a serious matter that needs correcting. This is a house, not a boat. It wasn't designed to sit IN water, but to shed it far away.

Usually the foundation wall sill sticks up at least 6" to 8" above the earth surrounding the garage. Lets go out a step further from this wall - what is outside the wall? Are you close to a neighbor wall or other building? Is there a raised planter bed here?

What is your gutter situation like, and where does the water drain that sits next to that wall?
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:07 PM   #5
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Garage/Shop Renovation


[-][GARAGE][S] North

S-Shop

Completely walled in. Shop Slab pitch away from garage.
West wall: Grass, maybe 1 foot of our property between building and neighbor's prop line.
East Wall: Concrete Driveway.
North. Concrete pad, installed long after the shop slab.
South Wall: The garage's load bearing wall. All full sized cement cinder block.

Unfortunately we don't have a gutter on the North Side and I'm sure that's a HUGE part of the problem. Even though both pads fall away from the garage.

Last edited by inlovewithohio; 09-01-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:38 PM   #6
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The foam board is pretty rigid, dense and white.

As for the garage. it's a detached garage, HUGE. It has an attic above the two (probably 3) main garage space, then on each side it has a 10 foot over hang, one of which was fashioned into a shop. The shop floor is a separate slab of concrete sloping away from the main garage.

(all one building)

[-][GARAGE][S] North -->

S=Shop

Completely walled in. Shop Slab pitch away from garage.
West wall: Grass, maybe 1 foot of our property between building and neighbor's prop line.
East Wall: Concrete Driveway.
North. Concrete pad, installed long after the shop slab.
South Wall: The garage's load bearing wall. All full sized cement cinder block.

Unfortunately we don't have a gutter on the North Side and I'm sure that's a HUGE part of the problem. Even though both pads fall away from the garage.
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Old 09-01-2010, 05:32 PM   #7
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Garage/Shop Renovation


So the shop slab that you are working with is actually sitting on a flat pad - not raised off the slab level at all?
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:55 AM   #8
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I'm pretty sure the previous owners told us the slab was poured on it's own - not poured on top of existing. The shop slab is also about 2 inches higher than the garage slab. I hope that answers the question correctly.
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:38 AM   #9
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Garage/Shop Renovation


OK, lets do a comparison: Your garage vs. your shop.

You garage floor is a gently slanted slab designed to pour water out the front, or to a drain. Around the perimeter of the slab is your foundation wall. It should be level all around the garage, but the slab floor will have a slope that make it seem taller closer to the garage door. If you look at your house and garage, around the bottom you should probably see the concrete of your foundation wall.

I suspect if you look at your shop, you won't see this short wall. This means that your sill plate is sitting directly on the slab and not elevated in any way. There would be nothing keeping water from soaking into the wood when it rained.

Am I correct?
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:37 PM   #10
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exactly. there is no foundation wall or anything that shows, completely flat slab. The sill plates were connected to the ground, so thats why i was told to install the cement blocks.

any suggestions on the plastic sheeting? or is it just overkill?
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:30 PM   #11
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Garage/Shop Renovation


You need something, but plastic isn't it. Let me ask on another forum.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:12 PM   #12
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I'd get a permit. Right now it sounds as if someone built walls on a carport slab with no thickened perimeter footings. If under a jurisdiction, they may require block or concrete stem wall on a footing to elevate the wood above the earth. As you rebuild it, keep a paper trail for full H.O.Insurance coverage.

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Old 09-04-2010, 12:05 PM   #13
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Garage/Shop Renovation


So what you have now, from a side view, is this:


What is keeping the water from spilling into your studs from the top of the block?
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:18 PM   #14
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Garage/Shop Renovation


Here is the site where I'm talking about this... if you can't read it I'll repost some of the relevant info:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/break...ges?msg=2918.1

The thread is titled "Fixing stupid", which refers to your shops construction, not to you!
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:45 AM   #15
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This is the plan...

The concrete blocks are in place and have anchor bolts. The wall is not up yet, pending this forum and or other places with answers.

Thank you very much for everything. Glad there are still helpful people in the world!


To bring back a question... what do you suggest about moisture control... is plastic sheeting ok? Tyvek is too expensive for just a shop wall.

Thanks for posting on other forums for suggestions. I read through and it was very helpful.
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