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Old 08-08-2009, 08:44 AM   #1
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Framing on Top of Insulation


The builder insulated the basement during construction. I framed the wall in front of the insulation losing about 4" of floor space around the wall parameter. This also left a 4" gap between the top of the framing and with concrete wall. I recently heard (to pass inspection) there has to be some type of fire shield at the top of the framing to cover this 4" space between the wall and the frame to block fire from going up to the first floor, should there ever be a fire. Has anyone heard of this and can you tell me how it would be done? What material would be used? Without this, would the framing pass inspection?

Last edited by kothep; 08-08-2009 at 09:42 PM. Reason: clarify
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:55 AM   #2
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Frame on top of insulation.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:17 PM   #3
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Yes, it needs fire stopping: How to fireblock framing

Read these articles before you cover the foil faced batt insulation: http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...gs?full_view=1

http://www.buildingscienceconsulting...gmaterials.htm

Page 11, here: http://www.buildingscienceseminars.c...w&Retrofit.pdf
Be safe, G

Last edited by Gary in WA; 08-09-2009 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:38 PM   #4
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Thanks G you provided a lot of information but I'm still confused. There is probably 4" between the top plate of the framing and the top of the wall due to framing over the insulation. From the top of the wall which is at the top plate of the framing, there is another 8-10" (depth of the truss) to the ceiling line and this space is also recessed back about 6". This space was filled with one width of insulation by the builder. See photo.

The only nailable surface would be the top plate of the framing. The wall is of course concrete.

I presume that I need to fireblock the 4" gap between the top plate of the framing and the concrete wall but there nothing to nail plywood to except for the top plate.

Any suggestions/direction?
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:12 PM   #5
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Here is a pic showing the gap between the concrete wall and the top plate of the framing.

Is it common to frame over insulation?
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Framing on Top of Insulation-the_gap.jpg   Framing on Top of Insulation-the_gap1.jpg  

Last edited by kothep; 08-10-2009 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:18 PM   #6
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Another pic
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:04 PM   #7
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Framing on Top of Insulation


I use 3/4" ply, fit over the concrete/frame wall, to stop any fire chase there. It doesn't need but three nails over the wood plate to hold it pressed to the concrete. Apply caulking under the lip of the ply, over concrete before installing. Pull the batt insulation to replace after installing foam board in the joist space against the rim joist: http://www.rd.com/57548/article57548.html

I would pull all batts below grade and replace with foam board. Do not use a vapor barrier, as per info listed. Any moisture coming through the concrete wall below grade cannot dry to the inside with a v.b. Glass batt insulation does not stop air, install foam boards as per info. for a superior application. The batt/v.b. system you have will mold behind it if you cover it. The onlt reason it's not now is the v.b. was left raised above the floor, for ventilation to dry. Be safe, G
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:27 PM   #8
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Thanks G, in looking at my situation.. the top plate of the framing is 1.5" above the concrete sill. If I used 3/4" plywood, would it be acceptable to be on a slant? It wouldn't would it, because it would not be pressed to the concrete this way? Can't really nail it on a slant, could I.

I assume the batt insulation is the pink insulation shown in the picture. You suggest removing that and putting foam board in that space first and then putting the pink insulation back on top of the foam board, right? And the joist space is the rectangle space between two truss' and the wall to outside? Sorry, I'm just not knowledgeable of construction terms and your references to codes & articles are too complex to me to understand. This my first project of any magnitude. And I am trying to do it myself for economic reasons.

And then are you suggesting to remove the insulation that is behind the framing and replace it with foam board? And the vapor barrier that you are referring to, is the insulation (silver) that is there now behind the framing? And if I leave this there, the wall will mold once the dry wall is put up? I am sorry for all the questions but I am desperate to understand what you are saying. Your help is appreciated.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:00 PM   #9
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Framing on Top of Insulation


No, don't nail on a slant. First install a pressure treated 2x2, or 2x4, to fit between the I-joist's bottom chords, on the bare concrete. Then use the 3/4" ply over the hole between the walls. As the info said, glue 1" or 1-1/2" foam board directly to the concrete wall portions below the dirt grade. The joist space at the rim area is labeled in the info: http://www.rd.com/57548/article57548.html

The pink is the batt insulation. It will mold if left on the concrete wall.

If the information I provided is hard to understand, I suggest you read up on some basic house building books, or at least some chapters: http://books.google.com/books?lr=&as...G=Search+Books

Be safe, G
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:04 PM   #10
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Thanks G, I think I got it!!
Is the silver also batt insulation?
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:39 PM   #11
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Framing on Top of Insulation


The silver is a vapor barrier foil cover over the fiberglass batt insulation. Both should be removed. Glue 1" foam boards with construction adhesive directly to the concrete, seal all joints with foil tape. Leave a 1" air space to the wood wall. Use pressure treated bottom plate sitting on some sill sealer, anchored with some tapcons or masonry nails or powder actuated pins. Insulate the wall with fiberglass batt insulation, with no vapor barrier. Drywall and paint with a latex paint to breath and dry any moisture getting through the foam board. As per web site info stated before. Be safe, G
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:16 PM   #12
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Wow G, that's a lot of re-work! The framing is already attached to the floor and ceiling trusses'. I used pressure treated bottom plates but no sill sealer. All of the interior walls are in place too.

Do you have an alternate solution? Like if I left things as they are and fire blocked the top and then put fiberglass batt insulation without a vapor barrier between the studs, would mold develop once the drywall is up?
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:05 PM   #13
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Framing on Top of Insulation


In post #11, I was stating the information from post #3, giving you the super-condensed version. If I could tell that, I'd buy a lottery ticket!

The foam is what slows done the incoming moisture from the earth that gets by your outside foundation sheeting or coating. Your drain tile moves the capillary sub-terrain water away from the footing/basement. If either of these is missing, water will certainly find it's way in. Unless you have ideal soil conditions and good drainage.
Be safe, G
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Old 08-15-2009, 09:18 AM   #14
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Framing on Top of Insulation


Thanks G that is a little more settling.... because most of the basement is above ground level. There is a ground level double door (slider) going outside on the backside of the house leaving only the front of the house and small parts of the sides of the house below grade.

So I am going to fireblock by putting 2x4s on the concrete sill (sealed to the concrete) betwen the trusses overlayed with 3/4" plywood nailed to the top plate of the frame and sealed around the edges with acrylic caulk and expanding foam in the bigger gaps.

And then seal every 10' section along the wall to prevent air flow behind the framing.

Is there any particular brand of acrylic caulk and expanding foam sealer that you would recommend for fireblocking?
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:48 PM   #15
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Framing on Top of Insulation


The box stores have some fire-block caulking and some fire-blocking foam. In the search box at the top of this page-- enter "fire-blocking caulk", and read some of the notes on that subject.
If the concrete is rough, you could caulk between the concrete/plywood to stop any air or fire travel. Be safe, G
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