Forums | Home Repair | Home Improvement | Painting | Interior Decorating | Remodeling | Landscaping


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Building & Construction

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-23-2009, 04:42 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 108
Share |
Default

framing in a tight spot


I'm framing a wall in place, and am having trouble with some of the tight spaces. i basically don't have enough room to swing a hammer, or fit a gun - how do you nail in a stud with only 4-5 inches room? Can i use screws instead? If so, what size etc.?
mmhendrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 06:04 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada (s/w ON.)
Posts: 2,294
Default

framing in a tight spot


I use deck screws for framing interior walls all the time! 3"X#10 work well! Of course use square head screws (Roberson) to get enough torque!
Wildie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 06:35 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 108
Default

framing in a tight spot


thanks! And you just screw it the same as you nail - two on one side, one on the other, 60 degree angle in etc.?
mmhendrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 10:33 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada (s/w ON.)
Posts: 2,294
Default

framing in a tight spot


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmhendrie View Post
thanks! And you just screw it the same as you nail - two on one side, one on the other, 60 degree angle in etc.?
The same as nailing!
Wildie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 09:13 AM   #5
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

framing in a tight spot


You can usually get away with screws in nonbearing walls, but they're not permitted by code for bearing walls. Actually, the code makes no provision for use of screws at all...They don't have the same shear strength that nails do.

A palm nailer is a very handy tool for nailing in tight places.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 09:18 AM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 209
Default

framing in a tight spot


+1 on the palm nailer.
__________________
It takes less time to do a thing right than it does to explain why you did it wrong.
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
beer_geek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 02:38 PM   #7
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,083
Default

framing in a tight spot


Yep, palm nailer....
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 04:16 PM   #8
Civil Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 3,970
Default

framing in a tight spot


The issue of screws versus nails seems to come up frequently on this forum. The shear strength of a nail or a screw depends on the strength of the metal (usually steel, but could be aluminum, brass, copper, galvanized, or ceramic), and the thickness of the shaft. Some people believe that screws are not as strong in shear as nails, but this is based on a misunderstanding of the properties of screws and nails.

Nail diameter is measured along the shank of the nail. Screw diameter for purposes of computing shear is the root diameter of the screw, i.e. the shank of the screw, and DOES NOT include the threads. So a screw which has a root diameter of 1/8 inch is just as strong in shear as a nail with a shank diameter of 1/8 inch, assuming they are made of the same material.

Screws have greater pullout resistance, because a screw resists pullout by mechanical connection to the wood, whereas a nail resists solely by friction. Depending on the type of connection, your connector may be subject to shear, pullout, or both. In my experience as a structural engineer, screws are as good or better as fasteners than nails, provided they are properly sized and installed. I was not aware that they are PROHIBITED by code, however building codes typically include nailing schedules for connecting framing members, but not screw schedules, so perhaps this could be interpreted to mean that since no schedule is provided, you cannot use screws, unless of course specified by a professional engineer as part of the plan.

That said, a quick review of current literature on attaching framing members will provide you with many examples of connection details using screws. Recent research from Florida discusses attachment of plywood sheathing to roof rafters, and recommends either screws or special ring shank staples (ring shank nails and staples have extra pullout resistance due to the mechanical bond of the rings).

I have specified screws for many structural projects, they work fine, but there are a few things to be careful of. First of all, the two elements to be joined must be correctly aligned before you drive the screw, since screwing will not cinch up pieces (unlike nails). This is often best achieved by clamping the two pieces together, then driving the first screw. Once you get one in, the clamp can typically be removed. If you cannot clamp the pieces, you need to bore an oversized hole through the first piece, then drive the first screw. As long as the hole in the first piece is larger than the thread diameter, but smaller than the head of the screw, the pieces will cinch together. As before, once the pieces are cinched, you can drive the remaining screws.

By the way, Simpson makes a wide range of galvanized steel connectors for framing elements. Although typically installed with special galvanized nails, Simpson has provision for use of screws as well. I don't really know how the IRC applies to use of screws with connectors, but as a professional engineer I spec screw connectors when I feel they are appropriate.
Daniel Holzman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 05:09 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 108
Default

framing in a tight spot


bravo!
mmhendrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 08:13 PM   #10
Member
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 7,203
Default

framing in a tight spot


Screwing will cinch up the pieces if you use the proper screws. Drywall screws will not cinch since they are threaded full length. The proper screw for connecting two pieces of wood will have a smooth shank that allows slipping in the one piece for cinching.
joed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 09:55 PM   #11
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

framing in a tight spot


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
By the way, Simpson makes a wide range of galvanized steel connectors for framing elements. Although typically installed with special galvanized nails, Simpson has provision for use of screws as well. I don't really know how the IRC applies to use of screws with connectors, but as a professional engineer I spec screw connectors when I feel they are appropriate.
To my knowledge, Simpson and USP's provisions for screws are limited to the use of their SDS-type screws, which are structural lags and are typically supplied with the hangers and anchors they're used with. They do not permit the use of deck screws (or similar) in joist hangers and lumber connectors.

I agree, there are certainly a lot of structural applications that screws can be specified for. I simply (and correctly) stated that the code doesn't list applications for them in the fastener schedules. That doesn't necessarily mean they're PROHIBITED, it just means the code doesn't recognize them. If someone uses screws in a structural application such as framing or sheeting a wall, they need the engineering documentation to support doing so.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2009, 10:04 PM   #12
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,083
Default

framing in a tight spot


Definitely DON'T use drywall screws. They're very "brittle" (for lack of a better word). I've popped the head off of many using them for a temporary "fix" fastening wood to wood.....
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 08:25 AM   #13
Registered User
 
Termite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,520
Default

framing in a tight spot


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
...Simpson has provision for use of screws as well.
Per Simpson's 2008 catalog page 14:

General instructions for the installer, note A:
Screws may not be used to replace nails in connectors unless approved and recommended by the designer/engineer of record. Unless stated otherwise, Simpson Strong Tie cannot and does not make any representations regarding the suitability of use or load-carrying capacities of connectors with screws replacing nails.
Termite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 12:55 PM   #14
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 28
Default

framing in a tight spot


Regarding the shear area of a nail vs a screw. Suppose we had a screw with minor diameter (non threaded diameter) equivalent to that of a particular nail. Suppose also the material properties of both fasteners were equivalent. The screw would be weaker in shear (or combined shear / bending) than the nail due to stress concentration at the root of the thread, yes? Some thread-forms would be worse than others in this regard, but none would be equivalent to that of the nail described above (straight nail, not a ring shank). Just a thought.
rizzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 02:39 PM   #15
Member
 
joed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Welland, Ontario
Posts: 7,203
Default

framing in a tight spot


Mike Homes uses screws all the time. That's good enough for me.
joed is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
framing material estimate maydoug Building & Construction 38 06-12-2009 01:32 PM
sloped roof, tight spot to work on. DIYGST Electrical 8 01-05-2009 07:28 PM
Framing Gun - Nail Shank Diameter Questions... MoparAutoworks Building & Construction 5 07-03-2006 09:27 PM
Wood Framing Getting Wet? stagger19 Carpentry 2 05-10-2006 08:37 AM
Framing a 16 foot high wall for shop pranderson Building & Construction 10 01-01-2006 04:23 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.