Framing problem -help!

lupinfarm · 10-24-2010, 01:36 PM

Hi I am new to this forum. My problem is with my bathroom. I have a 1850s
victorian farmhouse and I am trying to fame in my bathroom( house built
prior to stick framing) some time in the past some one decided to frame
in what used to be a stairway opening in the bathroom ceiling. Unfortunately
they used modern diamentional lumber which is a different size to the original.
Now it seems there are two joist systems for my bathroom ceiling( 2nd story floor above). I believe I need to provide support for this area which is going
to house my bathroom vanity( originally it was a closet) This is a span
of approx 67". My question is do i need a double header here and supporting
posts. If i do need a double header can i place them wide side down?.
All this is easier to understand with an image to look at, but I cant see anyway to upload one.

jklingel · 10-24-2010, 01:58 PM

So this is the floor for the new bathroom? What are the arrows pointing to? Where is this "double header" going, and what will it support? What is being removed from this picture? Sorry, but I'm not following. j

lupinfarm · 10-24-2010, 03:29 PM

What you are looking at is the ceiling of my bathroom. the blue line is
where the old joist system and new joist system meet. the orange arrows
show the new joists ( where old stairs used to be) and the black arrows
the original joist system. The problem is I think this should be supported with
a double header and posts at the blue line. Should the 2x 4s be placed wide
side down?, bearing in mind that there are no vertical members between
the posts at either end, a span of approx 70".

jklingel · 10-24-2010, 04:32 PM

OK, that helps. By "double header" are you referring to the double top plate, typically used at the top of a wall? (A header goes across a door or window to carry load from above, and, no, you virtually never lie boards on their side for a header. )If so, that is doubled as much for tying walls together in corners as it is for load carrying capacity. An engineer recently told me that the "new rule" is that a double top plate will sufficiently carry the load of a roof to the studs, regardless of where the stud hits the top plate relative to where the truss hits the top plate (if studs are 16" OC, and sized for the roof load). In other words, you don't need to have a stud right under a truss. Assuming that is accurate, then double top plates should carry your bathroom easily. Since what is there is working, I think we can assume there is no serious load right above the blue line. Back to your specific questions. In the pics, it looks like that "blue line" floor joist is carrying quite a bit of load. That joist appears to be 5 or 6' from the wall, and I don't know how far it is to the next wall or joist. It APPEARS that a supporting wall with double top plate under the blue line is in order, or a beam supported on each end. Either of those prompts the next question: What are your supports going to sit on, and how are they going to distribute the load to the earth?

ENGINEER10 · 10-24-2010, 04:37 PM

It depends on what is the joists span on either side of the header. From the picture it doesn't seem to be more than 4 or 5'.

Normally a header should be double ply, but if now it does not sag, there is no bouncing when you walk on it above, its span is 6' or less and the joists framing into it are no longer than 5' than you do not need to do a thing. Anything you feel like adding to it is fine because you are already OK.

If there are no posts to support the header at its ends then you need to add beams perpendicular to it sized to carry the header load and accommodate deflections.

**Gary in WA** · 10-24-2010, 05:32 PM

1. It appears to be about a 9' span for the single header joist, is that correct?

2. Is there a stair wall above the joists, directly over the end/start of the fill in new joists?

3. How many floors above the new joists?

4. Any purlins or struts bearing on wall in my #2 above, in the attic space? Pp.39, fig.20: http://books.google.com/books?id=iwS...joists&f=false

5. The new wall you built-- is it permanent-- or will you use a header above it also?

Gary

lupinfarm · 10-24-2010, 08:23 PM

Hi the total span of joist marked by blue line is 70 inches. I would be supporting this new joist with 6x6 or 4x4 post at one end and 3 2x4 at
the other end. There is just one story above this area and no stair case walls.
All removed years ago i think. The entire room only measures 100inches by 101 inches and is comprised of the old victorian joists in the forground are
approx 7 feet long and the new ( infill for stairway) are approx 3feet long. It was suggested to me that i fit out each joist that buts up against the blue
line marked joist with joist hangers and that i might not need a double
supporting joist under the blue line joist after all. To answer the question
of what is underneath the bathroom, there are 1/2 tree trunk joists approx
34" wide ( bark still attached) these span approx 17feet and are supported on the foundation and large bolders variously. There are no conventional joists. The black arrow points to the joist supporting the bathroom and the curved line indicates
the depth. Hope this helps.
supporting the ground floor.

**Gary in WA** · 10-25-2010, 12:42 AM

One final question. What is the span of the joists with the top notch cut out in the first picture? That is, how many feet to the next bearing wall from the single header joist. (The same ones in the second picture with the black arrows).

Gary

lupinfarm · 10-27-2010, 10:58 PM

Hi Gary, those joists marked with the black arrows are approx 70inches long. You are right, they are supported at the other end on the outside wall of the
house. Hi I meant to say the joists marked with black arrows are 7feet long and are notched to fit under the stair case
opening and at one time would have been supported by something, this area had been plasterboarded over to make a closet
in the adjoining room and some of the original structure had been removed.