Frame In A Ceiling

Scuba_Dave · 05-05-2010, 08:19 AM

Where are you located ?
Will you be installing insulation ?

Willie T · 05-05-2010, 08:48 AM

It really is a very simple, straight forward installation...... of course the 2x4's on the sides would have to be cut at an angle to fit up under the last beams. (You can see the lines I've drawn.)

BTW, I got lazy and drew 2x4 ledgers in the two upper pics. You would do better to use 2x2 ledgers on the joist ends as I show in the bottom view.... 2x4's don't give you enough beef left on the joist ends.

gmhammes · 05-05-2010, 09:14 AM

I would love to have vaulted ceilings!!! but to each their own. Good luck and please keep us posted on the progress!

altc81 · 05-05-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave

Where are you located ?
Will you be installing insulation ?

Im in Socal (Los Angeles)
Yes on the insulation

altc81 · 05-05-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmhammes

I would love to have vaulted ceilings!!! but to each their own. Good luck and please keep us posted on the progress!

they are great, dont get me wrong... but i believe the bedroom really isnt the place for them... not that cozy feeling

altc81 · 05-05-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T

It really is a very simple, straight forward installation...... of course the 2x4's on the sides would have to be cut at an angle to fit up under the last beams. (You can see the lines I've drawn.)

BTW, I got lazy and drew 2x4 ledgers in the two upper pics. You would do better to use 2x2 ledgers on the joist ends as I show in the bottom view.... 2x4's don't give you enough beef left on the joist ends.

Fabulous! Great rendition! Is that software that the drawings were made on? If so, is it avail for consumers? I would love to use it on future projects.

- so help me understand....
and yes i had the same issue with the last beams... having to cut the joists to fit it (what you see on the ends are just facades.. not actual rafters like the other beams.. they dont extend all the way to the exterior... they just help even out the rooms).....
anyways you say 2x2's as the ledgers.... then are the 2x4's notched to fit onto the 2x2's? (as i see in the 3rd pic) and how would i attatch the joists fitting under the beams anyway?

thanks

Willie T · 05-05-2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by altc81

Fabulous! Great rendition! Is that software that the drawings were made on? If so, is it avail for consumers? I would love to use it on future projects. It is called SketchUp by Google, and it is free (totally free) to download right online at GOOGLE.COM.

- so help me understand....
and yes i had the same issue with the last beams... having to cut the joists to fit it (what you see on the ends are just facades.. not actual rafters like the other beams.. they dont extend all the way to the exterior... they just help even out the rooms).....
anyways you say 2x2's as the ledgers.... then are the 2x4's notched to fit onto the 2x2's? (as i see in the 3rd pic) and how would i attatch the joists fitting under the beams anyway? You only need to cut an angle on the two end joists... ( the only ones that will be just 2x4's, because they will be fully supported by nails into the walls), the rest can be fit to the ledger in between the beams. The spacing might be off a little from ideal, but that just means you spend another 15 bucks or so on another piece of drywall.

The two 2x4's that you cut angles on will not fasten to the beams at all. You will fasten them sideways to the framing material behind the walls.

For a span that far (12' ?), 2x4's are too small. You will likely have to go with 2x8's or possibly even 2x10's. Joists attach to ledgers as shown in the drawings below.

thanks

Answers in red above.

altc81 · 05-09-2010, 12:07 AM

Everyone... thank you for all of your help on this project! really looking forward to move on it! bought and staged all of the materials today... loading and unloading made me tired! everything got heavy fast... especially the drywall... (yes ive carried lumbar and drywall before... i know how heavy they all are)....
now...
... i do have my reservations that the ledger will hold my joists and drywall. seeing that the ledger is being nailed to the existing frame through the plaster wall/gypsum lath.. please reassure me that it is safe... do i need to reinforce ledger with lag bolts? should i rip away plaster and place directly to existing frame?!
get to me by next weekend! tomorrow is moms day, so no projects!

cocobolo · 05-09-2010, 10:29 AM

hi altc81:

Yes, the ledger should be attached directly to your wall framing.

Cut the drywall about 5/8" below where the bottom of the ledger will be. Because when you put the drywall on the new ceiling, it should go right on top of the drywall on your wall.

Are you going to use a 2 x 2 for the ledger? I would be inclined to use at least a 2 x 4, as the 2 x 2 does not give you much meat to attach securely to the wall.

The ceiling will be heavy when all is said and done. And if you are going to use either 2 x 2 or 2 x 4 I would certainly use thin lag screws to do the attachment with.

I would use a 2 x 4, with two 1/4" x 4" lags into each stud. You drill the clearance holes (1/4") in the ledger, and about 5/32" holes into the stud.

This way the ledger will snug right up tightly to the wall, and the studs will not split.

tpolk · 05-09-2010, 10:49 AM

i would use same size ledger as ceiling joists and use hangers

cocobolo · 05-09-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpolk

i would use same size ledger as ceiling joists and use hangers

tp:

I wouldn't disagree with you on that one. But it sounds as though he has all his materials on hand. Of course he can always get more.

Yet a further possibility would be (once the drywall is removed above the attachment points), a longer joist could be attached to the side of the stringers and embedded in the wall.

There's a few solutions, any of which might work well.

altc81 · 05-09-2010, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cocobolo

hi altc81:

Yes, the ledger should be attached directly to your wall framing.

Cut the drywall about 5/8" below where the bottom of the ledger will be. Because when you put the drywall on the new ceiling, it should go right on top of the drywall on your wall.

Are you going to use a 2 x 2 for the ledger? I would be inclined to use at least a 2 x 4, as the 2 x 2 does not give you much meat to attach securely to the wall.

The ceiling will be heavy when all is said and done. And if you are going to use either 2 x 2 or 2 x 4 I would certainly use thin lag screws to do the attachment with.

I would use a 2 x 4, with two 1/4" x 4" lags into each stud. You drill the clearance holes (1/4") in the ledger, and about 5/32" holes into the stud.

This way the ledger will snug right up tightly to the wall, and the studs will not split.

I purchased 2x6 for joists and also the ledger. i was planning on using metal brackets to secure them to the ledger. so ledger to the frame directly then? i was also thinking a sister 2x4 to each existing wall stud and resting the joist on top of that...??? im sure there are many ways to do this... its just the more i thought about the weight of the materials, i was having concerns about the ledger actually being on the wall itself.
thanks again

Willie T · 05-09-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cocobolo

hi altc81:

Yes, the ledger should be attached directly to your wall framing.

Cut the drywall about 5/8" below where the bottom of the ledger will be. Because when you put the drywall on the new ceiling, it should go right on top of the drywall on your wall.

Are you going to use a 2 x 2 for the ledger? I would be inclined to use at least a 2 x 4, as the 2 x 2 does not give you much meat to attach securely to the wall.

The ceiling will be heavy when all is said and done. And if you are going to use either 2 x 2 or 2 x 4 I would certainly use thin lag screws to do the attachment with.

I would use a 2 x 4, with two 1/4" x 4" lags into each stud. You drill the clearance holes (1/4") in the ledger, and about 5/32" holes into the stud.

This way the ledger will snug right up tightly to the wall, and the studs will not split.

Be careful with this idea. It sounds good, but you will find yourself in violation of most building codes if you use notched joists that rest on a ledger that is more than one fourth of the joist height. (meaning if the notch is more than one fourth the joist height)

And do NOT use lag screws without prior approval from your Building Official of the type and brand. Most lag screws are not approved for use in a shear situation like this. Believe it or not, nails are considered the better way to go.

Your idea of using metal hangers is fine, and will be approved almost anywhere.

altc81 · 05-09-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T

Be careful with this idea. It sounds good, but you will find yourself in violation of most building codes if you use notched joists that rest on a ledger that is more than one fourth of the joist height.

i wont be using notched joists

cocobolo · 05-09-2010, 09:47 PM

altc81:

That's good that you have all 2 x 6's. These you can safely nail on to the studs, and use the joist hangers for 5 1/2" material to set your ceiling joists in.

And Willie T may well be right about the notching of the joist.

To be perfectly honest, I dislike using ledgers most of the time, unless you can notch the ledger itself into the framing. That's what they used to do with the old balloon style framing. But even at that, when they used all 2 x 4's for framing, it always seemed to me that there wasn't a whole lot of meat left in the studs. They may have used 1 x 4's for ledgers, which they used to set in. My memory fails me there.

And also in those days, a 2 x 4 was really 2 x 4, Unlike a 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 today. The old 2 x 4 had 52% more real size to it, which made quite a difference. In fact an old style 2 x 4 was nearly the same volume as a modern 2 x 6. The areas being 8.00 for the old 2 x 4 and 8.25 for the modern 2 x 6. Of course, the depth of the modern 2 x 6 gives it greater resistance to bending against its' width.