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-   -   Finishing Basement - Framing with 2x2's (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/finishing-basement-framing-2x2s-126977/)

mark2741 12-18-2011 07:20 PM

Finishing Basement - Framing with 2x2's
 
So I am working on finishing my basement. Actually, I'm only finishing about 40% of the basement - about 15% is being left as unfinished storage and the rest is unfinished for a small workshop/utility area and the furnace, washer/dryer, etc.

So I'll have two 'exterior' walls - in other words, two walls for the finished part are against the poured concrete foundation. Since this space is relatively small, I wanted to maximize the finished room by not doing standard 2x4 or 2x3 on the 'exterior' walls. I will use standard framing for the interior walls though. So for the exterior walls I'm using 2x2s attached to the concrete walls like in this diagram:

http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH..._FIFOUW_02.JPG

So just like the diagram, I have the blue insulation layer against the wall and have proceeded to screw in 2x2s for the framing, 16" on center. Problem is - every 2x2 I can find at my local big box stores are warped/twisted beyond belief. So when I try to do 16" on center, it may start out that way on the bottom 1/3rd but the top of the 2x2 is more like 18"+ away from the prior 2x2. I've gotten about 1/4th of the framing done using the 2x2s and I'm wondering if I may be better off just returning the 2x2s that I have left to HD and instead picking up 1x3s and just doubling them up one on top of the other. That would increase the width for nailing, and I believe those will be much 'straighter' and more forgiving.

Thoughts? I know that the any type of framing aside from 2x4 is often considered a bad idea, but I really need to maximize space here due to the layout of my basement (center stairway dividing the basement in half).

Gary in WA 12-18-2011 08:36 PM

You'll want a permit to use the finished area, check locally. I would: fire-stop the top plate to the concrete wall mud-sill and every 10' horizontally, per minimum code; use a sill sealer under the p.t. bottom plate for an air/thermal/capillary break from the slab; spread the glue behind the first foam board layer as not to have convective loops or condensation from the basement air contacting the colder concrete wall; http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/743
Foam board and canned foam the rim joist areas, air seal the drywall (ADA); http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...-at-rim-joist/

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/
Buy lumber at a lumber yard.......

Gary

mark2741 12-19-2011 07:27 PM

I wound up just giving up on the 2x2s and buying 1x3s from HD. While they are not perfectly straight they're fine for this purpose, while the 2x2s were useless. I have to double-up the 1x3s to match the 1.5" depth but it's still fairly inexpensive.

dadflynn 12-19-2011 10:22 PM

Why wouldn't you use 2 X 4's faced the same as your plate? They would be alot stronger and probably cheaper than doubling up 1 X 3's.

mae-ling 12-19-2011 10:26 PM

sometimes buying 2x4's ripping them and installing them right away works.\
or There is mteal channel that you run the styrofoam horizontal with a stip of metal between each row to attach D.W. to.

Missouri Bound 12-19-2011 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dadflynn (Post 798124)
Why wouldn't you use 2 X 4's faced the same as your plate? They would be alot stronger and probably cheaper than doubling up 1 X 3's.

This is how I have done it in the past...doubles your nailing surface and makes for a more stable wall. When you rip a 2X4 it inevitably wants to twist.:hammer:

mark2741 12-20-2011 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dadflynn (Post 798124)
Why wouldn't you use 2 X 4's faced the same as your plate? They would be alot stronger and probably cheaper than doubling up 1 X 3's.

!!!!!! Good question. The answer is: I didn't even think to. But obviously that would have been the way to go for sure. Wish you would have responded sooner!

As for ripping 2x4s - I did think of that but I don't have a table saw, just a chop saw, so I couldn't do it.

Since I already have the 1x3s I'm gonna just stick with those. I should have the remaining 2 concrete walls framed up and insulated within the next couple of days and then I'll work on the 'interior' walls, which will be 2x4 framing for sure.

SteelToes 12-20-2011 09:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Try using different kind of anchors.

I use 2x2 all the time for the furring strips with no problems, they are only 1.5" so you can bend 'em whichever way you want.

It is not realistic to expect 1.5"x1.5" piece of pine to be perfectly straight.

I use hammer set anchors , trick is to buy the right length so when it expands it expands in the outer cavity of the block.

You can lose your hair trying to get Tapcons to work.

mark2741 12-22-2011 10:10 PM

Just an update - I started using 2x4s and they're definitely the way to go. I was able to frame the 2nd interior wall in an hour using Tapcons and 2x4s as furring strips. I feel like an idiot for not thinking to use them in the first place!

AGWhitehouse 12-22-2011 10:14 PM

I would use z-furring for this application. Always straight...

A pic just to show what they are, though I like you layering better: http://www.clarkdietrich.com/sites/d...urringWall.jpg

Missouri Bound 12-22-2011 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2741 (Post 800863)
Just an update - I started using 2x4s and they're definitely the way to go. I was able to frame the 2nd interior wall in an hour using Tapcons and 2x4s as furring strips. I feel like an idiot for not thinking to use them in the first place!

An idiot is someone who doesn't learn from experience....you are not an idiot.............:thumbsup:

Gary in WA 12-24-2011 01:45 PM

"I would use z-furring for this application. Always straight...

A pic just to show what they are, though I like you layering better: http://www.clarkdietrich.com/sites/d...urringWall.jpg"-----

I could see where the metal would be straighter, though they also have draw-backs (as pictured): metal directly on cold concrete will have condensed water on it for much of the season (rusting metal and fasteners if not galvanized); convective looping around the foamboard if not tight at drywall because of gap from metal and fastener thickness; the metal would act as "heat sinks" effectively transferring the warmed side temperature to the cold wall. Rigid board behind them would solve both problems. Air seal the drywall would stop convective looping.
Do you have the installation instructions for them, perhaps they mention my thoughts?

Gary

AGWhitehouse 12-24-2011 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBR in WA (Post 802059)
I could see where the metal would be straighter, though they also have draw-backs (as pictured): metal directly on cold concrete will have condensed water on it for much of the season (rusting metal and fasteners if not galvanized); convective looping around the foamboard if not tight at drywall because of gap from metal and fastener thickness; the metal would act as "heat sinks" effectively transferring the warmed side temperature to the cold wall. Rigid board behind them would solve both problems. Air seal the drywall would stop convective looping.
Do you have the installation instructions for them, perhaps they mention my thoughts?

Gary

the "I like your layering" in my post wasn't clear I guess. What I meant by that was that, like the op, have a continuous layer of foam against the concrete. And where you have the 2x2 furring shown, you can use the z-furring. I don't think the condensation is anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. If there was so much heat/cooling conduction through an 18ga. piece of metal, it would stand to logic that the metal fasteners for wood would also create such conduction and condensation.

Gary in WA 12-25-2011 07:20 PM

“Very often, thermal performance of the steel stud wall is compared with wood stud wall. A reduction of the in-cavity R-value caused by the wood studs is about 10% in wood stud walls. In steel stud walls, thermal bridges generated by the steel components, reduce their thermal performance by up to 55%. Today, steel stud walls are believed to be considerably less thermally effective than similar systems made of wood because steel has a much higher thermal conductivity than wood. Relatively high R-values may be achieved by installing insulating sheathing, which is now widely recommended as the remedy for a weak thermal performance of steel stud walls.” From: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/...ame/index.html

80% relative humidity or about 22% moisture content condensation at the foam/concrete: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...DhqXdNK2vZyPLg

Definitely use foam behind steel on concrete. Thanks for clearing that up.

Gary


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