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Old 04-09-2008, 06:15 PM   #1
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Ok, for those of you unfamiliar to my issue, you can check out my original thread Newbie with a framing question.

I first called the manufacturer (boise cascade) and dealt with thier engineer. He was very concerned and made it sound as if my roof was gonna collapse at any moment. Also, he gave me a partial solution to fix the I joists. He said he couldn't guarantee it because he can only speak for their product and doesn't have all the necessary info on the rest of the lumber that consists of my rafters and rafter struts. His solution included nailing plywood for web fillers to each side of the ends of the I joist. But he said once I put up drywall, that the whole roof and ceiling is going to sag considerably. He also mentioned that I need to add 2x6 collar ties (There's already collar ties ever other pair that are nailed in) to each pair of rafters because they are each under a "thousand pounds of load"?? That seems awfully high to me. That would mean that I have about 35 pairs so that there is 35000 lbs of pressure toward the peak of the roof??

I also hired a structural engineer from the local area and he came out and immediately wasn't too concerned with what he saw. He calculated the loads and said that there isn't a whole lot going on that I should be worried about. He did contact APA. I guess they manufacture the webbing of the I joists. They came up with the same scenario to put web fillers on both ends of each I joist. He said once I do that, that I should be good to go and not to really worry about anything. He said I can put up drywall and it won't sag. I told him about the other engineer and how he came up with a completely different scenario for the worse. He said that's because that guy is in MN whereas we are in Houston and don't have the snow loads and so forth that he's concerned about.

My question is this to all of you: Who do I believe? They are both the same type of engineer with the same degree. Why do they have such different solutions or concerns? And who do I believe? I'm a little confused.

What's your opinions? Thanks for any suggestions.

Mike

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Old 04-09-2008, 06:32 PM   #2
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Check this pdf out from Boise.
http://www.bc.com/dms/wood/ewp/3_Gui...l_complete.pdf

This is odd, page two of this pdf says "do not bevel cut joist beyond face of wall" and page 16 shows "Slope Cut Joist Reinforcement."

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Old 04-09-2008, 06:49 PM   #3
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Yeah, it is wierd considering this is the page that the their engnineer is referring to http://www.bc.com/dms/wood/ewp/3_Gui...spec_13-23.pdf
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:46 PM   #4
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Not the babbling idiot who told you the entire roof and ceiling are going to sag. For starters, the roof rafters have absolutely nothing to do with the possibility of the ceilling sagging, as they sit directly on the top wall plate, and transfer their load to it, not to the ceiling joists. The rafters/ridge cannot sag from the walls spreading (as he implied) unless the ceiling joists are not properly secured to the top plates, and the ceiling joists will not sag from the weight of the drywall, or plaster, or any other finish, unless they are under size for the span. The reason that beveling ceiling joists beyond the wall is frowned upon, whether dimensional lumber or manufactured joists, is that theoretically you have lessened the depth of the joist at the point where it is most succepatable to shear forces. As I suggested in my first post, get a stamped letter and sketch from the engineeer to provide to the inspector should HE question the situation, install the recommended web stiffeners, and sleep peacefully under your new roof.
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Old 04-10-2008, 09:45 PM   #5
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


The stiffeners will probably work...trust the engineer who sends you a sealed letter/report as he is the one you will be suing if something goes wrong. Thats why he charges $450 and the other guy was free. Not too add salt to the wounds but the 2x6 rafters are a little long. We dont go more than 12-13 feet without a hog bracing down to a beam or wall. You can probably get by without bracing the rafters but it wouldnt be a bad idea if theres no gypsum up yet. You could also just space the rafters a little tighter or run double rafters every third
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:21 PM   #6
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Sorry for not checking this for a week. I have rafter struts going down to the I joists from the rafter beams. So there is some support midway up the rafter beams. It still confuses me that the manufacterer engineer was doom and gloom and the hired engineer isn't!
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:31 PM   #7
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


I used to lay out, size, and sell Louisiana Pacific I-joist floor and roof systems for a local lumber wholesaler.

BC's engineer is designing based on worst case scenarios. They're covering their backside from any liability of a poor installation, which I agree that you have. Overcutting the ceiling joists at that angle seriously compromises their integrity, and whoever designed and framed it for you screwed up bigtime.

BC's stance is like calling Ford and telling them you just did a bunch of work on your car to make it a race car...They're going to tell you it is a bad idea, even though it might work as a race car. See what I mean?

Your local engineer is not basing his opinions on worst case "generic" loads, he's basing them on local practice and the real world application. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and I don't see any reason why you can't put your trust in him.

I'm a building inspector. I often see structural issues with systems such as i-joists, LVL's, gluelam beams, and trusses...All things that have stringent manufacturer guidelines. When the manufacturer's data doesn't allow a modification, it is commonplace for a 3rd party engineer to be hired to design a repair or approve the modification.

The application of plywood gussets at the bearing points will help restore the strength to the portion that was clipped to meet the roof pitch.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:22 AM   #8
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Thekctermite...

Thanks for your opinion. Yeah it was a screw up big time from myself and the framer. I just drew up basic plans (and I mean BASIC, more like a 30x60 rectangle with roof pitches!!) for the garage and gave them to 84 Lumber for the take-off. They came back with the size of I joists. So I just trusted them (bad choice) without ever having the garage engineered. Then the framers bevel cut the ends of them. After reading all the manufacterer stuff about not cutting them right, I'm a little spooked about it. I would hate for it to cave in me and kill me! So that's why I hired this other guy. He's still working on the final fix for it and should have it to me in a week, but as I said, he says that once I put the web stiffeners in, I should be able to hang the sheetrock and put an A/C system in the attic with no other storage (which is fine with me).

One other thing that confused me was the manufacturer said these things should not deflect AT ALL. I have a .5 inch defelection at the 15' mark and the hired engineer says that I am well within the max allowed deflection. I'm no engineer but even a steel beam would deflect. Thanks for all the input guys, I really appreciate it.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:02 PM   #9
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Under their own weight there shouldn't be too much deflection, but they are designed to deflect under live and dead...The extent of the deflection is dependent on the use and design. Floors are designed with deflection allowances, as are other structural members. I would imagine that BC's guy wrote you off as beyond help, meaning that they won't warrant their product as installed. Can't blame them, but it won't fall in on you as long as you follow the engineer's instructions to the letter. If you're clear-spanning 30', that is one heck of a span. Ever consider running a beam down the middle of the span perpindicular to the joists?

When you install the gussets, the engineer will probably have you use glue (subfloor adhesive) and a certain nail pattern. Follow it to the letter, or the liability is yours, not his. Most I-joist manufacturers don't allow anything bigger than a 12d box nail to go into the flange (the top and bottom) of the i-joist due to splitting concerns, so keep that in mind if your repair requires nailing into the flange, or if the engineer's detail asks for 16d's into the flanges. He'll probably have you install web fillers with clenched nails. That is easier and will have good results.

84 Lumber's estimator/engineered wood guy really screwed up when he spec'd these joists for a ceiling on a conventionally framed roofline. A professional would have probably caught this problem, and if they're representing BC by selling and/or specifying BC joists, BC's regional sales rep should be informed about what happened. Most engineered wood companies have field reps/engineers that will consult on problems with their products.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:55 PM   #10
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Finally got some answers, need some advice


Thekctermite,

Thanks again for the info. I should know this next week what the hired engineers final fix is. I'll keep you guys updated. I have thought about the beam running perpendicular but if I am able to, I want to keep it a clear span.

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