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Old 02-14-2011, 08:46 AM   #1
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


The prior owner of my house finished the basement and used steel studs for framing. A few months ago I had a pertimeter drain installed, which required the contractor to cut out about 2 feet of drywall and studs on the perimeter. The contractor recommended using construction adhesive to secure the new bottom track for the studs to the new concrete that is over the drain pipes. He specifically said not to use metal fasteners because they might puncture the top of the pipes. I am not sure about that because the pipes should be deep enough that a short fastener should not come close. (It looks like 5/8" Ramset pins were used when the original track was installed.) Regardless, I don't want to do anything that would void the company's "lifetime warranty" on the drain system. Would construction adhesive alone be sufficient to secure the track? I would put a weight on the track while the adhesive dries to keep it from shifting during stud installation.

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Old 02-14-2011, 06:22 PM   #2
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


As it is only a non-bearing wall to hold the drywall and insulation, adhesive would probably work.

My concern is no thermal/capillary break between the steel track/concrete floor. Also steel studs are a poor choice in basements for two reasons; moisture/steel don't get along well, insulating with f.g. batt leaves air chutes for convective looping due to the flanges of the stud design; http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/how-b...ulation-90438/
Hopefully you have foam board with no poly on the concrete and use ADA when installing the drywall; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ent-insulation

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/
If using a sill sealer under the track (recommended), attach every 32"on center stud to the concrete wall with a bracket to prevent movement.

Gary
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:29 PM   #3
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


typically I see carpenters use powder actuated pins (such as the Ramset pins used previously) to attach a steel track to concrete. If that penetration is a concern, your pipes must be very close to the surface.

If it might jeopardize the warranty, I would tend to stay away from them though.

Since this is only a 2 foot section, I would take a piece of track, cut it 4-6 inches longer than the space to be filled. Then cut the wide part of the track so you would have tabs remaining on each end (that's the 2-3 inches per end) and overlap the existing track and use tek screws to attach it to the existing track.

If you want to set it with adhesive as well, obviously goop the floor before laying the track.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:57 AM   #4
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


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Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
As it is only a non-bearing wall to hold the drywall and insulation, adhesive would probably work.

My concern is no thermal/capillary break between the steel track/concrete floor. Also steel studs are a poor choice in basements for two reasons; moisture/steel don't get along well, insulating with f.g. batt leaves air chutes for convective looping due to the flanges of the stud design; http://www.diychatroom.com/f98/how-b...ulation-90438/
Hopefully you have foam board with no poly on the concrete and use ADA when installing the drywall; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ent-insulation

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/
If using a sill sealer under the track (recommended), attach every 32"on center stud to the concrete wall with a bracket to prevent movement.

Gary
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I know steel studs are not ideal for basements, but that is what I have to work with. It does not make financial sense for me to demo the remaining walls and reframe with wood.

I noticed that whomever installed the tile floor layed a green colored paper between the concrete and the thinset for the tile floor. I assume this is some sort of vapor/moisture barrier, but I don't know which kind exactly. I was looking into applying something like Redgard to the concrete where I will be installing the new stud track and tile. Or would you recommend something like Ditra or a regular sill gasket? I did notice some rust marks (I assume from the Ramset pins) on the concrete after removing a portion of track for a closet that I decided to eliminate. The basement has had flooding (which is why I had the drain installed), so I am wondering if that will be an issue with the new track now that the basement is (or at least should be) drier.

Thanks.

Last edited by phillylex; 02-15-2011 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:15 AM   #5
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


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typically I see carpenters use powder actuated pins (such as the Ramset pins used previously) to attach a steel track to concrete. If that penetration is a concern, your pipes must be very close to the surface.

If it might jeopardize the warranty, I would tend to stay away from them though.

Since this is only a 2 foot section, I would take a piece of track, cut it 4-6 inches longer than the space to be filled. Then cut the wide part of the track so you would have tabs remaining on each end (that's the 2-3 inches per end) and overlap the existing track and use tek screws to attach it to the existing track.

If you want to set it with adhesive as well, obviously goop the floor before laying the track.
I am not sure what you mean by this is only a 2 foot section. The drain goes from one side of the wall to the other, which is much longer than 2 feet. Also, there is no existing track to fasten the new track to. It was all removed for the drain. The portions of the studs that were not removed (i.e., 2 feet up) are hanging from the track that is screwed to the joists.

Here is a pic I had on my phone. It does not show the full basement, but should help explain.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/...10126-2004.jpg

Last edited by phillylex; 02-15-2011 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:49 AM   #6
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


what about if you put the adhesive on the floor plate, then drilled and tap-con it down. you could use a shallow tap con so as to not damage the pipe, but I agree with the others that if this is a concern, then how deep is the drainage piping??

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Old 02-15-2011, 10:27 AM   #7
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


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what about if you put the adhesive on the floor plate, then drilled and tap-con it down. you could use a shallow tap con so as to not damage the pipe, but I agree with the others that if this is a concern, then how deep is the drainage piping??

rod
I did not witness the installation of the drain, but my understanding from the contractor is that it is at least 4-6" below the floor. I probably should say that I'm more concerned about breaking the concrete that the contractor put over the pipes. It has a hollow sound and has hairline cracks in multiple places.

I found another thread where the poster had similar concerns. Not sure what he ultimately decided to do.

Sole Plate Over Perimeter Drain

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Old 02-15-2011, 10:30 AM   #8
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


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Originally Posted by phillylex View Post
I'm more concerned about breaking the concrete that the contractor put over the pipes. It has a hollow sound and has hairline cracks in multiple places.
then i would glue & screw and not use a ramset.

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Old 02-15-2011, 10:35 AM   #9
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


Sounds like the only thing I really can do. I'll use adhesive and the shortest masonry screws I can find. Even a short screw would be better than just adhesive.
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:45 AM   #10
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


take your drill bit and wrap some electrical tape around it at the depth you want to drill into the concrete. now you can comfortably repeat your hole depth all the way along. you should be able to get 2" tapcons for the job.

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Old 02-15-2011, 11:06 AM   #11
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


Much depends on the depth of the interior drain tile. If it was installed with the bottom of the rigid pipe at the level of the bottom of the footing AND it was a common 4" floating slab poured on top the footing to provide lateral wall support, there should be adequate thickness over the pvc pipe. - Can you find out what the actualt thicknesses and dimensions were.

Considering that the contractor left the wall hanging without and support, I would proceed slowly until I knew the actual depths. He could have done a less than proper job and threw up the warning to get himself off the hook for liability.

A crack in the new concrete should not be a big problem if there is a good drain tile system below to prevent water from rising.

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Old 02-15-2011, 01:14 PM   #12
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


Quote:
Originally Posted by phillylex View Post
I am not sure what you mean by this is only a 2 foot section. ]

Yes, I misunderstood your statement. While I took:
Quote:
which required the contractor to cut out about 2 feet of drywall and studs on the perimeter
.
to mean that he removed 2 feet of wall, I did not see it as "he cut the lower 2 feet off the entire perimeter wall. "

If the concrete is 4-6" (which is typical for a floor anyway), there shouldn't be any problem with a ramset or a tapcon. I would wait for awhile (at least 2 weeks but 4 would be better) to let the concrete cure before attaching anything to it though.

the concrete will have a hollow sound because it is hollow... underneath the concrete due to the drain pipe. That in itself should present no problems.

as an alternative, I would simply glue the track down as you have considered and use kickers to tie the studs to the actual structural wall.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:45 AM   #13
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


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Originally Posted by nap View Post
Yes, I misunderstood your statement. While I took:.
to mean that he removed 2 feet of wall, I did not see it as "he cut the lower 2 feet off the entire perimeter wall. "

If the concrete is 4-6" (which is typical for a floor anyway), there shouldn't be any problem with a ramset or a tapcon. I would wait for awhile (at least 2 weeks but 4 would be better) to let the concrete cure before attaching anything to it though.

the concrete will have a hollow sound because it is hollow... underneath the concrete due to the drain pipe. That in itself should present no problems.

as an alternative, I would simply glue the track down as you have considered and use kickers to tie the studs to the actual structural wall.
Sorry for the confusion.

I don't think the concrete is 4-6". I think the pipes are 4-6" down and there are maybe 2" of concrete over them.

The concrete is about 9 months old actually, so no concerns with curing at this point.

Any recommendations for a vapor/moisture barrier between the concrete and stud track?
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:19 PM   #14
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


Use 1" drive pins. You drill a 1/4" hole through the metal plate, put it on the floor and drill a 1/4" hole, 1 1/4" deep in the concrete. Drop the pin in the hole and tap the drive pin down into the hole. One every 2 feet will hold it in place.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:07 PM   #15
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Fastening Steel Stud Track to Concrete Basement Floor


I've glued the bottom plate down in basements with heated floors---no problem--I always used treated wood,however.

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