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Old 11-09-2010, 11:47 PM   #16
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Electrician and I-joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee1423 View Post
I fully plan to get documentation from the manufacturer. It is a Boise Cascade joist. Started to pull down the insulation and found that the gas line is directly above the notch going through all of the joists. That makes putting a solid 4' section of plywood hard to do.

I'll contact Boise Cascade first thing in the morning and then send a little note to the electrician.
It is almost never that you can get a full 4' piece in. The point is that the damage is done and you are not going to rip out the floor joist ( and all the other stuff that needs to be taken out to do it ). Now lets just use common sense. How are we going to fix the problem? SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN and GLUE IT AND BE DONE. It is that simple. Was the electrician wrong? Answer YES. Is your house going to fall down? Answer NO. Come on if any of you have ever built a house ( which I know a lot of you have) you have all seen this. Document, take pictures,complain do what you want. It is done. If this is your biggest worry you have one heck of a builder. Tell him thanks and recommend him to your friends.

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Old 11-10-2010, 02:24 AM   #17
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I'm wondering if you could get a length of the same joist material and install it beside the existing one?

*edit*

just read about the gas line... it is late at night... ignore this posting

*/edit*
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Go ahead and apply for a variance, those guys at City Hall can use a good laugh.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee1423 View Post
I fully plan to get documentation from the manufacturer. It is a Boise Cascade joist. Started to pull down the insulation and found that the gas line is directly above the notch going through all of the joists. That makes putting a solid 4' section of plywood hard to do.

I'll contact Boise Cascade first thing in the morning and then send a little note to the electrician.
Call your architect up and ask him what the fix is. He designed and spec'd the I-joists, he can find out what the fix is. This happens alot when an idiot like your electrician does something like this. There is always a fix and it has to be fixed. If the fix requires you cutting the gas line out, then you have to do so. If not, fine.You HAVE to back charge the electrician no matter what.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warnerww View Post
SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN and GLUE IT AND BE DONE. It is that simple.
We already have one hack job (a code violation) by an electrician, and now we have a recommendation to a homeowner that they "fix" it by performing another (violating the joist manufacturer's repair requirements).

All manufacturers of engineered joists are very clear that there are only three allowable repairs once the bottom flange of a joist as been notched, and to the best of my knowledge "SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN" is not one of them:



These are the only three "correct repairs" -the only three that are code compliant -and if you don't want to use the first two, the manufacturer requires that you obtain their (free) assistance in performing the third.

Likely it will indeed specify a piece of plywood and a faster schedule, but it will be the right sized piece of plywood installed in the right place using the right fasteners - it's easy to do it right, so why even consider doing it wrong?

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Originally Posted by warnerww View Post
Come on if any of you have ever built a house ( which I know a lot of you have) you have all seen this. Document, take pictures,complain do what you want. It is done. If this is your biggest worry you have one heck of a builder. Tell him thanks and recommend him to your friends.
I've built a few houses, and inspected a lot more.

And it's usually the builders with a "SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN AND BE DONE" attitude and approach who are making the sorts of construction mistakes that can cost my clients tens of thousands of dollars to correct a few years down the road.
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Last edited by Michael Thomas; 11-10-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:29 PM   #20
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They have requested a little more detail but it sounds like BCI will come out and make the repairs themselves at no cost. By doing it themselves, it will still be under warranty. Their initial thoughts are a 2x4 or 2x6 reinforcement on each side directly above the top of the bottom flange as to avoid the gas line. This will of course be specific to my case and someone else may require a different fix.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
We already have one hack job (a code violation) by an electrician, and now we have a recommendation to a homeowner that they "fix" it by performing another (violating the joist manufacturer's repair requirements).

All manufacturers of engineered joists are very clear that there are only three allowable repairs once the bottom flange of a joist as been notched, and to the best of my knowledge "SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN" is not one of them:



These are the only three "correct repairs" -the only three that are code compliant -and if you don't want to use the first two, the manufacturer requires that you obtain their (free) assistance in performing the third.

Likely it will indeed specify a piece of plywood and a faster schedule, but it will be the right sized piece of plywood installed in the right place using the right fasteners - it's easy to do it right, so why even consider doing it wrong?



I've built a few houses, and inspected a lot more.

And it's usually the builders with a "SLAP A PIECE OF 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN AND BE DONE" attitude and approach who are making the sorts of construction mistakes that can cost my clients tens of thousands of dollars to correct a few years down the road.
Just finished a house and the slap a piece of plywood on was the answer given by boise cascade themselves. showed building inspector the 3 places it was done showed them the paperwork by boise cascade and passed final inspection 3 weeks ago. I am glad you have your issue solved at no cost to you. good luck with finishing your basement.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:59 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
I cannot tell from the photo exactly how much of the I joist got cut, but it looks like at least two inches depth was removed.
Dan, pretty sure the box is the same as this, so only the sides of the bottom chord got altered:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
Here's the thing - a competent home inspector, if they see a repair to an engineered member, is going to recommend that the buyers have the sellers supply documentation that the repair is correct, which means either that it was designed by the manufacturer, or you have a stamped drawing from a appropriate licensed design professional.

So even for a "simple" repair it's best to obtain an appropriate design and implement per the drawing, it makes things much simpler when the time comes to sell the property.

So to
I'm not quite so sure a competent inspector of any title would ever catch that once it's drywalled.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jomama45 View Post
Dan, pretty sure the box is the same as this, so only the sides of the bottom chord got altered:
The "side notch exceptions" only apply to the upper flange of a engineered joist, not the lower flange, see for example:

Allowable Top Flange Notches in TJIŽ Joists

TJIŽ Joists with Side Top Flange Notches
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by warnerww View Post
Just finished a house and the slap a piece of plywood on was the answer given by boise cascade themselves. showed building inspector the 3 places it was done showed them the paperwork by boise cascade...
I'd appreciate it if you would post a scan of the recommendation by Bosie Cascade to "slap on a piece of plywood" as approved repair.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:36 PM   #25
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The following is how they propose I fix the notch. Two 10' 2x6's will be glued and nailed directly on top of the bottom flange (centered) with the web sandwiched in between. Then 16D nails will be nailed 3" apart off center in two rows that are staggered. To make it stronger, they said I could use a longer 2x6 which I may do since I won't have anything in the way to do so.

I also took the chance to ask them about some splitting that happened when placing some backing for drywall. They nailed through the side of a few bottom flanges into some 2x6s and that caused some splitting in several spots. They said that I could fix those spots the same way as the notch but that won't be as easy in some locations due to water lines or HVAC ducting preventing access. So I'm good to go on the notch and hopefully figuring something out on the splits.

So much for drywalling this weekend.

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Old 11-12-2010, 06:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Red Squirrel View Post
I don't get why the electrician would have gone through all that trouble. He could have just screwed it sideways like most people do. No need to do any cutting or shaving.

In my house I had noticed they had did the same thing in one area.

I also don't get why electricians, plumbers etc go and do things like that. It just seems like common sense to me that they should not mess with the structural. Or is it more a "I don't care" thing?

That's why a lot of inspectors require a rough AFTER the electricians and plumbers have been there.

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