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-   -   EIFS (fake stucco) questions (http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/eifs-fake-stucco-questions-43288/)

epeterson777 04-26-2009 02:09 PM

EIFS (fake stucco) questions
 
I have EIFS siding on the front of my house and I have an issue with leaking on my roof. I think what is going on is that the water, during heavy rains, comes down where the blue lines are with a lot of force. It then smashes the side of the "rotundra" seen here and I think the water is finding its way behind the EIFS and getting past the flashing and leaking down into the house. The water then goes down and hits the roof below and splashes more which may also be where the leak is coming from. I live in Colorado where it is very dry so fortunately this only happens about 5 times a summer. I have seen a few of my neighbors around here have contractors come in and they take the whole exterior of the "rotundra" off and work it that way. That seems like major overkill and I think the contractors are ripping people off. The area is pretty much impossible to see from the street so I really don't care how sloppy this looks as long as it stops leaking. My plan is to remove the EIFS in the areas outlined in red and replace/expand the flashing behind it and then fix the EIFS. I have found this website for directions on repairing the EIFS (pg 23-24) - http://www.dryvit.com/fileshare/doc/...tion/ds498.pdf

My questions are...
1. I am very handy, but is this stuff somewhat easy to work with?
2. Do they sell patch kits anywhere to just replace small areas?
3. Where do they sell this, I don't see it on Home Depot or Lowes's website and I know the people in the store probably won't have a clue what I am talking about?
4. Does this repair sound legit?


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...77/Roof001.jpg

nap 04-26-2009 03:16 PM

is the lower flashing on the front of the EIFS? It shouldn't be but if it is, is it sealed on the high side of it? If not, water will most assuredly be running behind it and back to the wall. If there is no flashing there, it could easily get into the wall.

Is the flashing installed similarly on the higher roof? Can't see with all the blue and red lines and my bad eyes.

epeterson777 04-26-2009 03:50 PM

Oh yeah I forgot to mention. Those pieces of flashing are just my five minute fix to stop the river of water from hitting the siding. So just ignore those, they are a temporary barrier. I am just a little hesitant to cut into the EIFS until I know at least where I can buy some.

Michael Thomas 04-26-2009 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epeterson777 (Post 265774)
I have seen a few of my neighbors around here have contractors come in and they take the whole exterior of the "rotundra" off and work it that way. That seems like major overkill and I think the contractors are ripping people off.

That's a very poor design, practically a recipe for water intrusion an EIFS exterior.

Patching EIFS before you determine the extent of water infiltration and damage is a Bad Idea - it's very difficult to determine the amount of damage behind apparently intact EIFS. A tiny hole in in EIFS can produce many square feet of damage behind the surface, I've seen an area several feet wide and two stories high rotted out by water entry from a coax cable run through a hole just a bit larger than the cable. To a certain extent you can ascertain the likely extent of damage with special types of moisture meters and read through the EIFS, but the only way for certain is to just keep removing EIFS until you reach the end of the damaged areas.

The fact that you've seen substantial areas of EIFS removed from nearby similar properties at the same location is a pretty good indication that extensive areas of damage were found and/or investigation determined that flashing or other installation details the could not be properly corrected without removing substantial areas of EIFS.

---------

Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson




jomama45 04-26-2009 04:14 PM

[quote=
The fact that you've seen substantial areas of EIFS removed from nearby similar properties at the same location is a pretty good indication that extensive areas of damage were found and/or investigation determined that flashing or other installation details the could not be properly corrected without removing substantial areas of EIFS.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I was going to say, there's a good reason (rot & mold) the contractors are tearing alot apart. IMO, flashing EIFS, or even the repair EIFS, is no DIY job. This can be evidenced by the fact that many "pros" that did your & the neighbors homes dont always get the flashing right.

Michael Thomas 04-26-2009 06:01 PM

epeterson777,

BTW. that curved roof/wall intersection is unusual, and I'd be interested in following the progress of the diagnosis and repair for an EIFS section I'm writing for my page on kick out flashings at: Diagnosing and Solving Roof Leaks - Kick Out Flashings - Paragon Home Inspections Chicago / Evanston / Skokie / Wilmette IL

NJ Brickie 04-26-2009 06:31 PM

Most places if not all you need to be a trained installer to buy synthetic stucco like Dry-vit.

epeterson777 04-26-2009 07:04 PM

I was hoping I would at least be able to cut the areas in red to see how bad it was underneath before I hired someone (by the way - I can't stand having to hire people). I'll probably make some calls tomorrow to get an idea of what I am looking at. It sucks that the house was built in 2002 and it has this issue. Is there some sort of a structural warranty that home builders have to honor? The house was built by DR Horton and I know there was a 1 year warranty on it when it was built, but I would hope there would be something for houses like this if it happens to all of them with this design.

Micheal I'll keep you informed with what happens. I bought the house about two years ago and the inspector said that EIFS siding was notorious for having moisture issues but he ran his moisture meter across all of it and didn't find any issues. I didn't know about it until it leaked in the house, and it takes a very heavy rain to get it to leak. The kick out flashing looks like an idea. Even after the leak is fixed I am going to do something to divert or disperse the water in that area.

Tscarborough 04-26-2009 08:45 PM

That is a very poor design, terrible, in fact. Since you have moisture intrusion that you know about, you will have to disclose when you sell, even if you repair it.

Any DIY repair is not going to help with EIFS when you attempt to resell. If you are not planning on selling, then you can remove and repair it, preferably with a hard coat stucco, since there is not much you can do about the design other than tearing down the coupla or changing the roof lines.

Michael Thomas 04-26-2009 09:05 PM

Unfortunately, if you're getting any water penetration at interior surfaces it's virtually certain that you're getting substantial amounts of water in the wall.

................

IMO it's very difficult if not impossible to reliably flash roof transitions to vertical EIFS without several inches of hold-back from the roof-wall interface bridged by carefully designed flashings, and that's tough for many installers to do even on a straight wall:

http://files.servicemagic.com/files/...s/0201Mc52.gif


http://files.servicemagic.com/files/...s/0201Mc53.gif

Where EIFS butts directly against the roof (top), water will wick up into the foam board and eventually make its way past the flashing into the framing. The correct approach is to use a shaped counterflashing above the step flashing (above). The additional vertical leg creates a ledge for caulk and backer rod, and it keeps the polystyrene board clear of water running along the roof.

-
http://www.servicemagic.com/article....ght.13685.html

and that curved surface going to be extremely difficult to flash, likely the people who been doing the previous repairs you've seen are using some kind of flexible membrane in place of metal flashing, and as far as I know there's no standard EIFS detail specified for doing that, so they're probably worked it out by trial and error, which is one reason I'd be very interested in seeing how they do it.

(The EIMA guide omits the counter-flashing and depends on hold-back and edge-wrapping to prevent wicking , see fig 15 at www.eima.com/pdfs/Guide_to_EIFS.pdf , but I've got my doubts, especially in a climate like mine (Chicago) where there is often 6-8" of wet snow on the roof.)


................

I generally refer to what's happened to you as "when CAD goes bad" - there are numerous examples in my area mostly involving "McMansion" type construction: the architects can easily draw the general design, integrating many architectural details which were difficult to durably waterproof even using more conventional materials, and that it's up to the builders to try to to realize the designs in materials such as EIFS, in which it's hard enough to keep things watertight even given simple designs.

As a result there have been major modifications made the EIFS installations and last few years, it's now generally accepted that water is going to get behind the outer layers and a conventional drainage plane is installed behind the EIFS, a property built in 2002 is right around that transition point, so it might be merely difficult rather than infernally difficult to solve your problem.

But especially with the older systems all kinds of maintenance nightmares remain, including many not related to the initial installation: for EIFS to be properly installed requires not only fanatic attention to detail and absolute consistency during initial construction, it also requires that everyone - the cable guy, the phone guy, the guy who installs the remote reader for the water meter, the handyman who installs the flag holder over the front door - everyone who pokes a hole in the EIFS , if they're going to avoid compromising it, has to understand how to properly water-proof it, and of course that just does not happen, and eventually water gets in there.
.................

There had been a number of lawsuits related to EIFS installations, GOOGLE will turn up attorneys who do this kind of work.

----------

Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson

Leah Frances 04-26-2009 09:40 PM

My first job as a lawyer was at an insurance defense firm. We handled many-millions of dollars in EIFS cases. Insurance companies are not paying out on these cases ie. Homeowners do not tend to win these cases - no matter what a plaintiff's attorney might tell you. BTW - second homeowners NEVER win these cases. They don't have privity with any of the people who they might sue - there are simply too many people to point fingers at (installer says it's a manufacture defect - manufacture says it's an installation problem - general contractor says it's the sub's responsibility - builder declaims liability because home buyer signed off on a purchase contract - yada - yada - yada).

tony stall 04-27-2009 08:46 AM

Dryvit distributor in Colorado
 
Sir, your best bet would be to determine what type of EIFS you have (Dryvit, for example, is one manufacturer, but there are others) and then contact that company to determine who their distributor in your area would be. At that point, contact the distributor and ask him for help with your problem. He'll have access to local inspection people and contractors who can evaluate and potentially fix your problem. EIFS is not a DIY product.

If your product is actually a Dryvit EIFS, your distributor is likely the Jones Heartz Company, headquartered in Denver.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact our engineering department.

Best regards,

Tony Stall
VP Marketing
Dryvit Systems, Inc.

Michael Thomas 04-27-2009 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony stall (Post 266124)
Best regards,

Tony Stall
VP Marketing
Dryvit Systems, Inc.

Nice to see a manufacture's rep on the board.

If you feel the advice I gave above can be in any way improved, please don't hesitate to say so.

epeterson777 04-27-2009 07:19 PM

How do I go about determining what brand I have?

I called a couple of contractors today and they are going to give me a call tomorrow morning to set up some estimates.

I am pretty scared to find out what this is going to cost me.

epeterson777 04-30-2009 11:13 PM

Well I have already been blown off by two contractors - another reason why I can't stand hiring out work. I'll call more again tomorrow. Would there be any issues (aside from appearance obviously) with replacing this with conventional siding?


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