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Old 03-08-2013, 09:40 PM   #16
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


JAYP, the guy at the flooring store knows more than most of the people given you bad advice here! YOU DON'T NEED A VAPOR BARRIER WITH HARDIBACKER. It is not traditional cement board! Many of these people that replied to you here are saying they have the same characteristics and they don't! Hardibacker doesn't need a vapor barrier or waterproofing except you do need to tape and thinset the joints. Go right to the video from Hardibacker on Youtube and they'll show you how to do it properly. I only use Hardibacker on my jobs and it's been great. Less fuss and better performance. There are a lot of opinions out there, but remember most of them are coming from people that don't know what they're talking about.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #17
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


JRA773,

No wonder you didn't use a real name, you are the one that has no idea what you're talking about. You don't know, but you don't know that you don't know. So you might be forgiven if you study and learn.

Hardie installation on wet walls require some type of vapor barrier just like any other backerboard. The barrier is to protect the wall cavity. Many of us like to use a surface waterproofing instead of plastic or tarpaper on the studs. I think a surface membrane is much better.

You obviously haven't had the time yet to read the Hardie directions, or maybe you missed it. You should have someone read them to you, especially the part that says;

3 | - Attach HardieBacker cement board to framing
• See applicable building codes regarding vapor barrier requirements.


Go here: http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner...install-us.pdf
Pay little attention to videos that gloss over details, actually most don't mention the important stuff to make it look easier.

I'm not gonna bother to read all those old posts that go back close to 5 years. I will if it will help though.

So, you have your assignment, report back when you're ready.

Jaz
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:59 PM   #18
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


My 2 cents plus tax. Unless you are doing a bathroom or kitchen wall next to a water source such as a sink, tub/shower using a vapor barrier is optional, it is recommended however to use a vapour barrier in any bathroom, utility room (containing a washer /dryer) or kitchen. A floor or wall in a hallway, bedroom, entry way a vapour barrier is optional and usually unnecessary. It's best to contact a local governmental building agency and enquire on building codes. Whats true in one state may not apply in another
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:09 PM   #19
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Where else would you use concrete backer if not a tub surround or stall shower for a wall application? You're supposed to apply a vapor barrier either on the studs or better yet on the surface of the backer. It's not always done I know, but there's lots of things done wrong out there and there's lots of hacks doing work. Not following the rules does not mean an automatic failure though.

Why do you mention a floor? Floors do not require a vapor barrier.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:51 PM   #20
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


I used hardi-backer over my traditional particle board floor before I put down a tile floor.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:30 AM   #21
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


That's nice Todd, (and not a recommended substrate, that particle board), but no one's talking about floors. We're dealing with vapor barriers which are for walls in wet areas.

Hope that floor was OSB and not PT. PT should always be removed. Again it won't fail every time, but if PT gets wet a few times, be ready to sweep it up. Bad stuff.

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Old 03-09-2013, 12:54 AM   #22
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


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Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
That's nice Todd, (and not a recommended substrate, that particle board), but no one's talking about floors. We're dealing with vapor barriers which are for walls in wet areas.

Hope that floor was OSB and not PT. PT should always be removed. Again it won't fail every time, but if PT gets wet a few times, be ready to sweep it up. Bad stuff.

Jaz

I realize that, walls especially bathroom and kitchens, or even laundry rooms should use a vapour barrier. But I would want to check with the local agencies just to find out what code is, just so one can exceed it.

My home is a 1980's built mfg home, so they cut every possible corner imaginable. Then they cut even more corners. I replaced the vinyl and carpeted floors with 2 1/2 inch layers of wonder board, all glued and screwed in place with 6 inch screw spacing. I ran a center support to stiffen up the entire floor to be tiled with a 4x6 center support beam.
The floor uses 3/4 inch plywood on 2x6 joists on 16 inch centers, but I did find a few areas where particle board was used.
When I was done with the structural mods I put down radiant heating wire and floor tile. It's all very solid, and much better than the flex-o-matic original floor. No cargo decking was harmed during the construction of the home.
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:21 AM   #23
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


I'm glad it worked out for you. Why did you use two 1/2" layers of WonderBoard? That did nothing for the structure aside from making it heavier and higher. You should have added plywood then the concrete board if you needed the additional height.

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Old 03-09-2013, 01:38 AM   #24
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


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Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
I'm glad it worked out for you. Why did you use two 1/2" layers of WonderBoard? That did nothing for the structure aside from making it heavier and higher. You should have added plywood then the concrete board if you needed the additional height.

Jaz
I didn't mean to hijack this post, but I wanted the structural and thermal properties that only a concrete based product could provide.
In retro-spec, however, I probably could have just put down cargo decking and plywood, but time and cost were factors

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 AM   #25
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Hey Jazman...

It might be worth pointing out for others that may find this thread that when you do a tub surround, you don't want vapor barrier behind and then ALSO a waterproofing product or membrane over the substrate.

Some people do this to be extra sure of their waterproofing.

This I believe would leave nowhere for any moisture that did get through the membrane to go.

This in my mind is where you would get the mold sandwich.

Am I right about this?
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:49 AM   #26
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Absolutely right, you don't want 2 vapor barriers and a mold sandwich. I highly recommend going with the surface membrane. On a tub surround, two coats and/or the specified mil thickness of a liquid membrane is good. For showers I like Kerdi with the Kerdi Drain.

Most people end up doing nothing, they just don't know what to do. A few years later they have mold and mildew in the lower corners and trouble keeping it all clean.

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Old 03-10-2013, 08:32 AM   #27
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jayp View Post
The Hardiebacker brochure says not to apply waterproofing to the face of it because it will not allow the thinset to adhere properly.
Just curious, where you read this?

I'm in the final stages of a traditional shower pan with Hardie walls and did a great amount of research, and never came across that? But did find plenty of advice for using a barrier with Hardie in wet areas. So I went with a waterproofing Hydro Ban on the hardie, and the thinset seemed to bond very well to it?

I know many were having issues with Red Gaurd, which might be the reason, they were saying no waterproofing? I purposely steered away from Red Gaurd, and went with Hydro Ban, which I couldn't even srape off a piece of test Hardie I coated. So far the tiles have bonded well to the Hydro Ban, not sure where you read that, but hope my tiles don't fall off?
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:14 PM   #28
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


I no expert on this but I think the vapor barrier goes between the wall studs and the hardibacker wall board. At least that's what I found on a previous tile bathroom wall installation
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #29
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Jaz man, Iím not trying get personal and it seems you are, and Iím certainly not trying to hide behind a username. I was just trying to help a beginner who seemed confused since heís been told 2 different things.

My code doesnít require a vapor barrier and my point is you donít need one with Hardibacker by the nature of itís composition. Your plain wrong on them requiring a barrier - their directions say ďcheck your local codeĒ and doesnít say you absolutely need it. Why would they leave that out of their installation videos if you really needed it?

They specifically say not to use a Redguard or similar waterproofing on the face as it will not allow thinset to bond as well. Iíve had a number of pro tilers tell me they never install a vapor barrier behind or waterproof the front of Hardi-backer. It's already waterproof. To say you must have a vapor barrier with Hardi is just not true. Now again, I'm talking about tub surrounds, not pans.

To say an installation may fail w/no barrier is nuts. We've all seen 30-40 year old homes with tile that was just stuck to regular old drywall with mastic
in a tub surround and no leaks or mold. Of course, I donít condone this, but my point is itís still on the walls and in decent shape.

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:50 PM   #30
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Do you need a vapor barrier behind hardiebacker?


Hardibacker is not waterproof----water will not damage it--however water will absorb into it and eventually soak right on through.

A vapor barrier is required---either on the face of the studs or better yet--a water proof membrane on the exposed face of the backer board---

Where did you hear that Hardi was waterproof?

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